check swing appeal - what a mess......

[newump]

1-2 count. no one on base. next pitch is a curve ball in the dirt. Batter takes a half swing. ump says "ball, no he didn't" ball rolls away from catcher towards the backstop. BR pauses for a split second and then upon seeing the ball rolling away takes off for 1st. no request for help is made by the defense. catcher quickly retrieves the ball, but BR is already standing on first w/o a throw. PU then beckons BR back to the box as the pitch was ruled a ball and now the count is 2-2. BR comes back to the box. then the defense team requests that PU get help. PU askes U1 if the batter swung at the pitch. U1 rules that he did swing. Catcher then throws the ball down to first. U1 gives an out signal. BR is still at the home plate area. Umps then send BR back to first as he had already reached first safely and was then put in jeopardy when he was brought back to the box by PU.

this was ncaa D1 conference game.

1. PU should have immediately asked for help if he thought it was close.
2. U1 should have offered his help immediately without waiting for an appeal.
if he thought the batter swung.
3. U1 should have said no swing once they reached that point (regardless of what he thought - just to avoid this mess)
but these things did not happen.
what would you guys have done?? could you call BR out ? would you not allow the appeal at that late time?? or did they do the right thing once they were faced with this scenerio
thoughts??

[jkhel1]

Yes the PU should have asked right away.... if it was me and the batter took off for first... I would check with my BU while batter was on first or even before he got to the base. I would not call the batter out if I made him return to the plate.

[PeteBooth]

Here's what I have a problem with.

PU askes U1 if the batter swung at the pitch. U1 rules that he did swing.

U1 should have simply agreed with the PU ESPECIALLY after "some time" has elapsed.

Yes the PU should have requested help immediately but since he didn't and the PU also brought back the BR, in order to "keep peace" the BU should have mirrored the PU's call.

You said a D1 college game so I am surprised by the lack of quality officiating concerning this scenario.

Pete Booth

[Klokard]

A thorough pre-game would have eliminated this. Prior to the game I always talk to my partner(s) about this exact scenario. I request that the BU use a closed fist for swing and do nothing for no swing. Same as a dropped/trapped 3rd strike. I do not like BU offering help prior to being asked.

[Chris_Hickman]

In the professional game, it is acceptable for the base umpire to offer help without being asked if there's a wild pitch....pitch in the dirt and the plate ump doesnt ask because he is trying to get out of the way of the catcher..... I would probually do it in a college game if I felt it was nessesary. It just cleans things up. If that really happened in a D1 game....
The base guy owes the plate guy a steak dinner!

[Matt]

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

Here's what I have a problem with.

U1 should have simply agreed with the PU ESPECIALLY after "some time" has elapsed.

What if even Helen Keller could see he went, and the only reason that PU didn't get it is because he didn't see it? Then you've shot all credibility to hell.

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

Yes the PU should have requested help immediately

Yes.

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

but since he didn't and the PU also brought back the BR, in order to "keep peace" the BU should have mirrored the PU's call.

Nope. He should have come in with the voluntary strike. While it has been the subject of discussion recently on this board, there is no reason not to use it at levels other than professional ball--this is a prime case in point.

[ozzy6900]

This is why in my pre-game, I inform my partner that on an "anything and 2", if there is a checked swing and a passed ball, if there is a question, I will go to my partner without being asked. If I am the BU, I will give the PU a moment, if he does not come to me and he has not signaled a strike, I will give the call without being asked.

Both sides need to know the status of the ball and of the swing. Leaving it all to chance is very bad for the players and, as in this scenario, bad for the umpires.

[Kevin Finnerty]

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

Here's what I have a problem with.



U1 should have simply agreed with the PU ESPECIALLY after "some time" has elapsed.

Yes the PU should have requested help immediately but since he didn't and the PU also brought back the BR, in order to "keep peace" the BU should have mirrored the PU's call.

You said a D1 college game so I am surprised by the lack of quality officiating concerning this scenario.

Pete Booth

So getting it right is less important than, A) keeping peace, or B) making a PU look bad?

[btdt]

I understand the repercussions of reversing a called ball to a third strike.
If I am uncertain I will gladly ask for help on my own.

But with all due respect, I have never understood why I would ask for unrequested help when my judgment was the batter didn't offer.

Ain't you giving someone and advantage? Perhaps the offense?
Isn't asking for help on a check swing a form of an appeal on a play?

What other appeal plays do you tip the offense to?

Like I said, I get the repercussions of reversal resulting in strike three.

[DG]

Originally Posted by newump

1. PU should have immediately asked for help if he thought it was close.
2. U1 should have offered his help immediately without waiting for an appeal.
if he thought the batter swung.

That's enough said right there, except in 1. PU should have immediatly asked... period.

Do this and you don't have to worry about how to fix the screwup..

[Nigel Tufnel]

Originally Posted by newump

1-2 count. no one on base. next pitch is a curve ball in the dirt. Batter takes a half swing. ump says "ball, no he didn't" ball rolls away from catcher towards the backstop. BR pauses for a split second and then upon seeing the ball rolling away takes off for 1st. no request for help is made by the defense. catcher quickly retrieves the ball, but BR is already standing on first w/o a throw. PU then beckons BR back to the box as the pitch was ruled a ball and now the count is 2-2. BR comes back to the box. then the defense team requests that PU get help. PU askes U1 if the batter swung at the pitch. U1 rules that he did swing. Catcher then throws the ball down to first. U1 gives an out signal. BR is still at the home plate area. Umps then send BR back to first as he had already reached first safely and was then put in jeopardy when he was brought back to the box by PU.

this was ncaa D1 conference game.

1. PU should have immediately asked for help if he thought it was close.
2. U1 should have offered his help immediately without waiting for an appeal.
if he thought the batter swung.
3. U1 should have said no swing once they reached that point (regardless of what he thought - just to avoid this mess)
but these things did not happen.
what would you guys have done?? could you call BR out ? would you not allow the appeal at that late time?? or did they do the right thing once they were faced with this scenerio
thoughts??

To avoid anything further, as plate ump you have the ability to call "time" when the br is on first base - check with your bu before you "beckon" the runner back to the box...

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by btdt

I understand the repercussions of reversing a called ball to a third strike.
If I am uncertain I will gladly ask for help on my own.

But with all due respect, I have never understood why I would ask for unrequested help when my judgment was the batter didn't offer.

To avoid a sh***storm like the one in the OP.

[mbyron]

Remember that FED includes a rule that allows umpires to "fix" situations caused by their own mistakes. So if the OP had been a high school game, the umpires would have been correct by rule to put the BR on 1B, since he had obviously made it there himself during the play.

[johnnyg08]

sometimes your DI umpires aren't necessarily your area's best umpires. my take is at that level, an ump should know that a coach is going to appeal the check swing...ask right away...or like the other thread on here...if BU has a swing and PU has ball, BU needs to simply signal right away.

[PeteBooth]

How did they GET IT RIGHT

here's what happened

PU then beckons BR back to the box as the pitch was ruled a ball and now the count is 2-2. BR comes back to the box. then the defense team requests that PU get help. PU askes U1 if the batter swung at the pitch. U1 rules that he did swing. Catcher then throws the ball down to first. U1 gives an out signal.

On this play THERE IS NOTHING RIGHT, so the BU should have simply MIRRORED the PU's call.

Pete Booth