Tag or no?

Illini_Ref · #1 (**permalink**) Fri Feb 15, 2008, 05:47pm

Runner misses first, ball arrives, runner is diving back to first. Can the fielder step on the base and appeal or is this now a tag play.

UmpJM · #2 (**permalink**) Fri Feb 15, 2008, 05:58pm

Illini Ref,

With the runner scrambling back to the base, the fielder is required to tag him in order to obtain the out.

JM

bobbybanaduck · #3 (**permalink**) Fri Feb 15, 2008, 06:25pm

disagree. that's only true for a play at the plate. 7.10(b) a runner is out on appeal when: with the ball in play, while advancing or returning to a base, he fails to touch each base in order before he, or a missed base, is tagged.

Matt · #4 (**permalink**) Fri Feb 15, 2008, 06:34pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobbybanaduck

disagree. that's only true for a play at the plate. 7.10(b) a runner is out on appeal when: with the ball in play, while advancing or returning to a base, he fails to touch each base in order before he, or a missed base, is tagged.

Wrong.

This is unrelaxed action. As such, the runner must be tagged.

UmpJM · #5 (**permalink**) Fri Feb 15, 2008, 06:35pm

bobby,

My "source" for the assertion that the runner must be tagged in this situation is the J/R discussion of missed base appeals of first when action is "unrelaxed", using J/R terminology.

From example play 2:

Quote:

...because action is unrelaxed, the runner must be tagged, and such tag is an appeal of the overrun base, and the runner is out.

JM

Forest Ump · #6 (**permalink**) Fri Feb 15, 2008, 06:52pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

bobby,

My "source" for the assertion that the runner must be tagged in this situation is the J/R discussion of missed base appeals of first when action is "unrelaxed", using J/R terminology.

From example play 2:

JM

Coach...doesn’t that apply to 2nd and 3rd only. An appeal play at 1st and home can be made when action is relaxed or unrelaxed. Therefore the fielder can hold the ball at 1st or home and properly appeal when the runner misses the bag even as he scrambles back to the bag. 2nd or 3rd would be relaxed only.

UmpJM · #7 (**permalink**) Fri Feb 15, 2008, 07:01pm

Forest,

I don't believe so. In regard to Home, the MLBUM is quite explicit that if the runner is attempting to return to home (rather than heading to the dugout) he must be tagged for a properly constituted appeal:

Quote:

5.3 RUNNER MISSES HOME PLATE

Should a runner, in scoring, fail to touch home plate and continue on his way to the bench (making no effort to return), he may be put out by the fielder touching home plate and appealing to the umpire for a decision. However, this rule applies only where a runner is on his way to the bench and the catcher would be required to chase the runner. It does not apply to the ordinary play where the runner misses the plate and then immediately makes an effort to touch the plate before being tagged. In that case, the runner must be tagged. In such cases, base path rules still apply to the runner (i.e., he may not run more than three feet from the "baseline" between him and home plate).

J/R is the only source that I have found that specifically addresses Illini_Ref's posed sitch (B/R scrambling back to 1B after missing it) and it is quite specific in stating that the runner (not the base) must be tagged in order to uphold the appeal.

Since I can't find anything that contradicts this interpretation, and the logic strikes me as similar to that in the MLBUM regarding a runner missing home, I'm inclined to accept the interpretation as valid.

JM

umpjong · #8 (**permalink**) Fri Feb 15, 2008, 08:34pm

Fed. and NCAA clearly states you can tag the base for the appeal.
Fed. pg.49 art.5 &penalty
ncaa pg. 97 rule 6 a 3
and im sure pro would not make you tag a runner on a force play!!!
you would simply smile at the umpire step on the base with the baseball in hand and state he missed the base mr umpire sir. and your response would be, why yes young man you are correct and the idiot is out!!!

this is an appeal on a missed force play

fitump56 · #9 (**permalink**) Fri Feb 15, 2008, 09:38pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Illini_Ref

Runner misses first, ball arrives, runner is diving back to first. Can the fielder step on the base and appeal or is this now a tag play.

What rules?

bobbybanaduck · #10 (**permalink**) Fri Feb 15, 2008, 09:39pm

thinking about arguing this makes my head hurt.

greymule · #11 (**permalink**) Fri Feb 15, 2008, 09:47pm

That play occurred right in from of me a few years ago at a Phillies' game. B1 beat the throw but missed the bag and overran down the RF line. Safe. F3 then stepped on 1B and held the ball up for the umpire to see. (I couldn't tell for certain if F3 actually said anything.) No call. F3 wiggled the ball to get the ump's attention again. No call. F3 tagged the runner returning to 1B. Out.

The way have understood it for a long time, if the runner is in the vicinity and returning, it's a tag play.

johnnyg08 · #12 (**permalink**) Sat Feb 16, 2008, 11:32am

I'm pretty sure FED has a pretty brainless appeal rule...way different from FED...the one above is correct for OBR...to be safe...just don't make a call until the kid tags him...not many will simply stand there with their foot on 1B and not do anything else if no call is made.

soundedlikeastrike · #13 (**permalink**) Sun Feb 24, 2008, 02:05pm

Relaxed, unrelaxed, I hate these terms, leaves to much chance of missing those outs we so dearly desire.

From J/R: For assistance in defining and identifying appeals, action is described herein as "relaxed" or "unrelaxed." In relaxed action the runner (whose action is being appealed) is inactive; he is standing on another base, or is well removed from the base at which the appeal is being made. In unrelaxed action the runner (whose action is being appealed) is trying to scramble to a base and the ball is in, or approaching, the vicinity.

Anytime I read something that says "for assistance in defining and identifying" that's all I'll use it for, assistance, not gospel, etched in stone fact.

EXAMPLES (from J/R)
Ex: 1. Missed base appeal of 1st (overrun) or home, relaxed action: A runner is advancing to first or home and runs by the base, missing it, and continues running for several steps, ignoring the fact that he missed the base. The fielder, now in possession of the ball, shows the ball to the umpire and steps on the base, claiming the runner missed it: action is relaxed, so this is an appeal, and the runner is out.

My question/concern/comment; I would not deny this appeal of touching the base, even when the runner from "several steps beyond" or "well removed", suddenly realizes, is told by coach or teammate, to touch. Though the runner would indeed be attempting to scramble back. He missed it, it was appealed, out.

I would not make the catcher; 1. chase the runner nor 2. await his arrival to be tagged. For example; if the appeal by touching the base is recognized and F2 is now able to catch say the BR going into 2nd, hey, that's 2 good things. If I deny this appeal, F2 say's huh, and delays his throw to retire the BR at 2nd, I've just put the screws to the D twice, and rewarded the O for their mistake, uh, uh, not on my watch..

So what is relaxed really? I gotta say, if the runner is doing anything other than scrambling back (returning to touch) "and" has a chance to touch before, either an appeal or a tag can be applied, that's unrelaxed. If the runner has not yet come to a stop (non-slide) after overrunnning, I'd say he's not "returning" and allow the appeal, regardless of what the runners intentions are. Ex. F2 pukes up a throw from F8 in an attempt to retire the scoring runner, the ball rolls towards the mound 8', F2 secures the ball and wheels back for a tag attempt on the runner, the tag misses the runner who missed the plate as he passed it at full tilt. As the runner now several steps beyond is attempting to stop his momentum and return, F2 steps on the plate and say's "he missed it sir". Ring him up IMO, especially if it's a sincere "Sir."

How far do we go? What is several steps beyond or well removed, are these super tiny baby steps or long Impala strides? What is several, more than 1, 5, 10? What is "well removed?" If the D has time to step on and state the appeal, in a relaxed fashion, I'd say that's well removed.

J/R Example: (chopped short a bit.)
Ground ball to SS, BR beats the throw to F3, is past 1B and has missed the base, the umpire signals safe and the F3 steps on the base and appeals to the umpire that the BR failed to touch first. The BR is out on the appeal.

This ex. has no comment on what the BR is doing, he's probably not even stopped his momentum yet, or even if he has, he's probably several steps beyond, so the D would have to wait or chase, for the tag. Meanwhile R2 is rounding 3rd and threatning to score, I won't make the D wait, nor chase, and possibly allow the runner from 3rd to score.

In closing (yeah I know, finally) I'd go as far as saying that the only time action is unrelaxed is:
Rule 7.08(k) Comment: It does not apply to the ordinary play where the runner misses the plate and then immediately makes an effort to touch the plate before being tagged. In that case, runner must be tagged.

This is what I can relate too. F2 missed the tag, R missed the plate, they both know and are trying to correct their mistakes. But, should the runner in an attempt to avoid the ensuing tag, take a step other than back to the plate, or from our fellow "Wrestling officials" fail to move forward, in a stalling tactic, I'd allow the appeal, as I can construe these manuevers as not "returning"....

GarthB · #14 (**permalink**) Sun Feb 24, 2008, 02:29pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

bobby,

My "source" for the assertion that the runner must be tagged in this situation is the J/R discussion of missed base appeals of first when action is "unrelaxed", using J/R terminology.

JM

JM:

What we have here may be an example of how the J/R is use in internet debates far more than it is in the real world of professional baseball.

In fact, while TC can better attest to the higher MiLB levels, umpires at the Single A level are discouraged from...no that's not strong enough...actually told not to consult rule books or interpretive manuals other than the OBR and PBUC's.

mbyron · #15 (**permalink**) Sun Feb 24, 2008, 05:25pm

FED and OBR seem to be quite different. FED explicitly addresses this question, and they want the out called. If BR misses the base, and F3 subsequently has the ball and steps on the base, BR is out. F3 does not even have to make an unmistakable appeal (need not say, "he missed the base" for example).

For OBR, it's less clear. The rationale for J/R's position makes sense to me.
1. A runner acquires a base when he passes it, whether or not he touches it.
2. BR may overrun 1B.
3. To allow F3 to appeal the missed base by tagging the base seems to defeat the purpose of (2).
4. On the other hand, some appeal must be allowed - the BR who misses 1B has committed a base-running error.
5. Tagging the BR if he's trying to return seems to be a good compromise.
6. If BR is not trying to return, the fielder need not chase him, just tag the base.

Notice that the terms "relaxed action" and "un-relaxed action" are not essential to this reasoning.