Tag or no?

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by Wendelstedt School

The rulebook clearly states that either the base or the runner may be tagged in order to be put out. The only restriction noted is that the ball must be alive. The interpretation you cite originally came from Nick Bremigan (RIP). He transfered the requirement to tag the runner at home plate when he is in the immediate vicinity and returning, to every other base. Unfortunately, this is not the opinion of most professional umpires. There is no relaxed vs. unrelaxed action noted anywhere. This shows the problem with umpires taking a specific area of the rules, and applying them to other areas of the field. This often occurs with plays where contact occurs with a runner and fielder, both just doing there job. Specifically addressed for the area around home plate, the fictitious "tangle/untangle" ruling has been applied way too often on the field in situations where interference or obstruction should be called.
Both of these situations are specifically addressed in the Wendelstedt Rules and Mechanics Manual; recently updated for 2008.

Again, we see the difference between the theory of J/R and practice of professional umpires. It is no wonder PBUC instructs its new umpires to refrain from consulting interpretive manuals other than its own.

[UmpJM]

Hunter,

Originally Posted by Wendelstedt School

The rulebook clearly states that either the base or the runner may be tagged in order to be put out. The only restriction noted is that the ball must be alive. The interpretation you cite originally came from Nick Bremigan (RIP). He transfered the requirement to tag the runner at home plate when he is in the immediate vicinity and returning, to every other base.

Similarly, the rule book clearly states that when a runner misses home plate, only the BASE need be tagged (Ref. OBR 7.10(d) ). Yet, in the MLBUM, there is explicit discussion that, if the runner is returning to attempt to touch the missed base, HE, rather than the base, must be tagged in order for the defense to obtain an out. Now your assertion that Nick transferred the 7.10(d) principle to 7.10(b) makes sense to me. Why it is improper to do so eludes me.

Unfortunately, this is not the opinion of most professional umpires.

Well, I guess I'd have to take your word on that point.

There is no relaxed vs. unrelaxed action noted anywhere.

I have to disagree. While it does not employ the terms "relaxed" and "unrelaxed", the MLBUM discussion of 7.10(d) is unquestionably EMPLOYING the concepts behind those terms as defined in J/R in defining the proper way to rule.

This shows the problem with umpires taking a specific area of the rules, and applying them to other areas of the field.

How?

This often occurs with plays where contact occurs with a runner and fielder, both just doing there job. Specifically addressed for the area around home plate, the fictitious "tangle/untangle" ruling has been applied way too often on the field in situations where interference or obstruction should be called.

To me, an entirely different set of circumstances & I'm not sure what misconception you are referring to.

Both of these situations are specifically addressed in the Wendelstedt Rules and Mechanics Manual; recently updated for 2008.

OK. Why is it that most MLB umpires disagree with the J/R interpretation on the original question posed in this thread?

JM

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

OK. Why is it that most MLB umpires disagree with the J/R interpretation on the original question posed in this thread?

JM

Or more precisely, on what authoritative basis do they do so? Please don't say the absence of terminology in the rulebook: that's the cause of the problem, not the solution.

[Dave Reed]

Originally Posted by GarthB

It is no wonder PBUC instructs its new umpires to refrain from consulting interpretive manuals other than its own.

Does that mean they are discouraged from reading J/R. JEA , and MLBUM (which I suppose isn't issued by the PBUC)?

[tjones1]

I've tried searching with no luck. Help.

Thanks.

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by Dave Reed

Does that mean they are discouraged from reading J/R. JEA , and MLBUM (which I suppose isn't issued by the PBUC)?

Yes. And PBUC readily admits that the rules under which Professional Baseball leagues, (MiLB), occasionally differ from those underwhich MLB plays. The most recent examples would be the batter's "one-foot-in-the-box" rule that the MiLB enforces and the new timing rule for pitchers to pitch after receiving the ball.

The new pitching regulation has even more selective enforcement...it was assigned to implemented in two minor leagues only, the short season NWL and Penn-York.

[johnnyg08]

technically speaking don't you have to work MLB to get a hold of the manaul so we rely on the PBUC or other interpretive manual to rule the majority of our games...other than the pros on here??

What I was taught was the following.

Once the BR has crossed 1B, even if the base is NOT touched, the umpire MUST signal SAFE, even if F3 subsequently catches the throw while maintaining contact with 1B. The onus is on the defense to recognize that the base has been missed and properly appeal.

[fitump56]

Originally Posted by BigGuy

What I was taught was the following.

Once the BR has crossed 1B, even if the base is NOT touched, the umpire MUST signal SAFE,

He's not Safe, why signal it?

even if F3 subsequently catches the throw while maintaining contact with 1B.

Now he's out.

The onus is on the defense to recognize that the base has been missed and properly appeal.

Appeal what? You called him safe.

[fitump56]

Originally Posted by johnnyg08

technically speaking don't you have to work MLB to get a hold of the manaul so we rely on the PBUC or other interpretive manual to rule the majority of our games...other than the pros on here??

PBUC sells their stuff
http://web.minorleaguebaseball.com/m...c=_ump_manuals

[fitump56]

Originally Posted by GarthB

The new pitching regulation has even more selective enforcement...it was assigned to implemented in two minor leagues only, the short season NWL and Penn-York.

Good and let it rot in Hell there.

[greymule]

On an attempted steal of 2B, the runner tries to avoid the tag by thrusting his body wide of the bag and grabbing the base with his hands. However, as F6 misses the swipe tag, the runner slides completely past the base without touching it. With the runner's feet pointing toward left field, his outstretched hands are a foot past 2B, reaching back for the bag.

F6 has his foot on 2B and sees that the runner is off and trying to scramble back. Instead of tagging the runner, he appeals to the umpire that the runner missed the bag as F6 proceeds to get ahold of the base.

Strictly according to the book, we honor the appeal. But in this situation, we don't.

[johnnyg08]

Originally Posted by fitump56

PBUC sells their stuff
http://web.minorleaguebaseball.com/m...c=_ump_manuals

you are correct...but look at the url....that manual is not the MLB umpire manual...that is the minor league manual...hence the url...minorleaguebaseball.com

[fitump56]

Originally Posted by johnnyg08

you are correct...but look at the url....that manual is not the MLB umpire manual...that is the minor league manual...hence the url...minorleaguebaseball.com

My bad, we have the PBUC and the MLB changes tagged to them. I forgot the difference. As to the MLB stuff, it doesn't appear to be hard to get if a walking moron like Interested Ump can get them.

Running...........>>>>

[Interested Ump]

Originally Posted by fitump56

As to the MLB stuff, it doesn't appear to be hard to get if a walking moron like Interested Ump can get them.

Originally Posted by MrUmpire

I do believe this is the first time we've agreed on something.

The Deej is angry with me because I cashed his welfare check and gave it to the GOP.