Tag or no?

[Illini_Ref]

Runner misses first, ball arrives, runner is diving back to first. Can the fielder step on the base and appeal or is this now a tag play.

[UmpJM]

Illini Ref,

With the runner scrambling back to the base, the fielder is required to tag him in order to obtain the out.

JM

[bobbybanaduck]

disagree. that's only true for a play at the plate. 7.10(b) a runner is out on appeal when: with the ball in play, while advancing or returning to a base, he fails to touch each base in order before he, or a missed base, is tagged.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by bobbybanaduck

disagree. that's only true for a play at the plate. 7.10(b) a runner is out on appeal when: with the ball in play, while advancing or returning to a base, he fails to touch each base in order before he, or a missed base, is tagged.

Wrong.

This is unrelaxed action. As such, the runner must be tagged.

[UmpJM]

bobby,

My "source" for the assertion that the runner must be tagged in this situation is the J/R discussion of missed base appeals of first when action is "unrelaxed", using J/R terminology.

From example play 2:

...because action is unrelaxed, the runner must be tagged, and such tag is an appeal of the overrun base, and the runner is out.

JM

[Forest Ump]

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

bobby,

My "source" for the assertion that the runner must be tagged in this situation is the J/R discussion of missed base appeals of first when action is "unrelaxed", using J/R terminology.

From example play 2:

JM

Coach...doesn’t that apply to 2nd and 3rd only. An appeal play at 1st and home can be made when action is relaxed or unrelaxed. Therefore the fielder can hold the ball at 1st or home and properly appeal when the runner misses the bag even as he scrambles back to the bag. 2nd or 3rd would be relaxed only.

[UmpJM]

Forest,

I don't believe so. In regard to Home, the MLBUM is quite explicit that if the runner is attempting to return to home (rather than heading to the dugout) he must be tagged for a properly constituted appeal:

5.3 RUNNER MISSES HOME PLATE

Should a runner, in scoring, fail to touch home plate and continue on his way to the bench (making no effort to return), he may be put out by the fielder touching home plate and appealing to the umpire for a decision. However, this rule applies only where a runner is on his way to the bench and the catcher would be required to chase the runner. It does not apply to the ordinary play where the runner misses the plate and then immediately makes an effort to touch the plate before being tagged. In that case, the runner must be tagged. In such cases, base path rules still apply to the runner (i.e., he may not run more than three feet from the "baseline" between him and home plate).

J/R is the only source that I have found that specifically addresses Illini_Ref's posed sitch (B/R scrambling back to 1B after missing it) and it is quite specific in stating that the runner (not the base) must be tagged in order to uphold the appeal.

Since I can't find anything that contradicts this interpretation, and the logic strikes me as similar to that in the MLBUM regarding a runner missing home, I'm inclined to accept the interpretation as valid.

JM

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

bobby,

My "source" for the assertion that the runner must be tagged in this situation is the J/R discussion of missed base appeals of first when action is "unrelaxed", using J/R terminology.

JM

JM:

What we have here may be an example of how the J/R is use in internet debates far more than it is in the real world of professional baseball.

In fact, while TC can better attest to the higher MiLB levels, umpires at the Single A level are discouraged from...no that's not strong enough...actually told not to consult rule books or interpretive manuals other than the OBR and PBUC's.

[mbyron]

FED and OBR seem to be quite different. FED explicitly addresses this question, and they want the out called. If BR misses the base, and F3 subsequently has the ball and steps on the base, BR is out. F3 does not even have to make an unmistakable appeal (need not say, "he missed the base" for example).

For OBR, it's less clear. The rationale for J/R's position makes sense to me.
1. A runner acquires a base when he passes it, whether or not he touches it.
2. BR may overrun 1B.
3. To allow F3 to appeal the missed base by tagging the base seems to defeat the purpose of (2).
4. On the other hand, some appeal must be allowed - the BR who misses 1B has committed a base-running error.
5. Tagging the BR if he's trying to return seems to be a good compromise.
6. If BR is not trying to return, the fielder need not chase him, just tag the base.

Notice that the terms "relaxed action" and "un-relaxed action" are not essential to this reasoning.

[fitump56]

Originally Posted by GarthB

What we have here may be an example of how the J/R is use in internet debates far more than it is in the real world of professional baseball.

Or any other baseball, all of the rd party rules interpretave junk books out there. They are for philosophical discussions, pointers, that sorta thing.

[Wendelstedt School]

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

bobby,

My "source" for the assertion that the runner must be tagged in this situation is the J/R discussion of missed base appeals of first when action is "unrelaxed", using J/R terminology.

From example play 2:



JM

The rulebook clearly states that either the base or the runner may be tagged in order to be put out. The only restriction noted is that the ball must be alive. The interpretation you cite originally came from Nick Bremigan (RIP). He transfered the requirement to tag the runner at home plate when he is in the immediate vicinity and returning, to every other base. Unfortunately, this is not the opinion of most professional umpires. There is no relaxed vs. unrelaxed action noted anywhere. This shows the problem with umpires taking a specific area of the rules, and applying them to other areas of the field. This often occurs with plays where contact occurs with a runner and fielder, both just doing there job. Specifically addressed for the area around home plate, the fictitious "tangle/untangle" ruling has been applied way too often on the field in situations where interference or obstruction should be called.
Both of these situations are specifically addressed in the Wendelstedt Rules and Mechanics Manual; recently updated for 2008.

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by Wendelstedt School

The rulebook clearly states that either the base or the runner may be tagged in order to be put out. The only restriction noted is that the ball must be alive. The interpretation you cite originally came from Nick Bremigan (RIP). He transfered the requirement to tag the runner at home plate when he is in the immediate vicinity and returning, to every other base. Unfortunately, this is not the opinion of most professional umpires. There is no relaxed vs. unrelaxed action noted anywhere. This shows the problem with umpires taking a specific area of the rules, and applying them to other areas of the field. This often occurs with plays where contact occurs with a runner and fielder, both just doing there job. Specifically addressed for the area around home plate, the fictitious "tangle/untangle" ruling has been applied way too often on the field in situations where interference or obstruction should be called.
Both of these situations are specifically addressed in the Wendelstedt Rules and Mechanics Manual; recently updated for 2008.

Again, we see the difference between the theory of J/R and practice of professional umpires. It is no wonder PBUC instructs its new umpires to refrain from consulting interpretive manuals other than its own.

[UmpJM]

Hunter,

Originally Posted by Wendelstedt School

The rulebook clearly states that either the base or the runner may be tagged in order to be put out. The only restriction noted is that the ball must be alive. The interpretation you cite originally came from Nick Bremigan (RIP). He transfered the requirement to tag the runner at home plate when he is in the immediate vicinity and returning, to every other base.

Similarly, the rule book clearly states that when a runner misses home plate, only the BASE need be tagged (Ref. OBR 7.10(d) ). Yet, in the MLBUM, there is explicit discussion that, if the runner is returning to attempt to touch the missed base, HE, rather than the base, must be tagged in order for the defense to obtain an out. Now your assertion that Nick transferred the 7.10(d) principle to 7.10(b) makes sense to me. Why it is improper to do so eludes me.

Unfortunately, this is not the opinion of most professional umpires.

Well, I guess I'd have to take your word on that point.

There is no relaxed vs. unrelaxed action noted anywhere.

I have to disagree. While it does not employ the terms "relaxed" and "unrelaxed", the MLBUM discussion of 7.10(d) is unquestionably EMPLOYING the concepts behind those terms as defined in J/R in defining the proper way to rule.

This shows the problem with umpires taking a specific area of the rules, and applying them to other areas of the field.

How?

This often occurs with plays where contact occurs with a runner and fielder, both just doing there job. Specifically addressed for the area around home plate, the fictitious "tangle/untangle" ruling has been applied way too often on the field in situations where interference or obstruction should be called.

To me, an entirely different set of circumstances & I'm not sure what misconception you are referring to.

Both of these situations are specifically addressed in the Wendelstedt Rules and Mechanics Manual; recently updated for 2008.

OK. Why is it that most MLB umpires disagree with the J/R interpretation on the original question posed in this thread?

JM

What I was taught was the following.

Once the BR has crossed 1B, even if the base is NOT touched, the umpire MUST signal SAFE, even if F3 subsequently catches the throw while maintaining contact with 1B. The onus is on the defense to recognize that the base has been missed and properly appeal.

[fitump56]

Originally Posted by Illini_Ref

Runner misses first, ball arrives, runner is diving back to first. Can the fielder step on the base and appeal or is this now a tag play.

What rules?