The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Volleyball

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old Fri Sep 09, 2011, 02:14pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: South Dakota
Posts: 173
What would you have done as R2

Working last night as R2 and have the following play ... bump, bump, set, spike with ball remaining in play (not a legal double first contact, but plays by two different players). Don't know what happened, but an obvious 4 hit play that wasn't called by my R1. I don't know if she froze or what, but everyone in the gymnasium (and obviously the other teams coach) realized that there was an uncalled 4 hits violation. The team that violated won the point, and of course the other teams coach was discussing with me what a fine job my partner was doing at counting to 3 . I decided to discuss the play with my partner and we called a replay. What would you have done as R2 ??
__________________
I'm due to make a great call. After all, I've been officiating a long time !!!
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Fri Sep 09, 2011, 02:34pm
Lighten up, Francis.
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 4,482
This actually just happened to me a couple weeks ago at a training session! I put up 4 fingers to show the R1, but he was too focused on the play to see my help. My observer told me, in that situation, to do the following:

1) Move to the side of the net where the 4 hits occurred and STAY THERE. Stop moving with the play.

2) Hold up the 4 fingers, chest high and OUT away from your chest. You are no longer being subtle.

3) If the R1 still doesn't see your signal at the end of the rally, blow your whistle while still holding up the 4 fingers.

At this point, everybody in the gym knows that you think there were 4 hits, so you better be 100% sure! The R1 then can decide to ignore your help and take the rash of manure that will surely follow, or s/he can have a "change of mind" and award the point to the team that didn't commit the initial fault.

I don't think this is a replay situation.
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old Fri Sep 09, 2011, 03:23pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Tustin, Michigan
Posts: 403
Quote:
Originally Posted by REFANDUMP View Post
Working last night as R2 and have the following play ... bump, bump, set, spike with ball remaining in play (not a legal double first contact, but plays by two different players). Don't know what happened, but an obvious 4 hit play that wasn't called by my R1. I don't know if she froze or what, but everyone in the gymnasium (and obviously the other teams coach) realized that there was an uncalled 4 hits violation. The team that violated won the point, and of course the other teams coach was discussing with me what a fine job my partner was doing at counting to 3 . I decided to discuss the play with my partner and we called a replay. What would you have done as R2 ??
I agree with Scrapper...did you not have a whistle as R2??? The only replay here would be if YOU miscounted, but together you have to get this call right!
__________________
"When I umpire I may not always be right, but I am always final!"
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old Sat Sep 10, 2011, 10:10pm
Resident VB Rules Guru
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: San Jose, CA - the Capital of Silicon Valley
Posts: 481
Send a message via AIM to MCBear Send a message via MSN to MCBear Send a message via Yahoo to MCBear Send a message via Skype™ to MCBear
I agree with scrapper and blueump...replay is NOT an option. That is the wimp-out call when you don't know the rules well enough to make the correct call. If you are absolutely certain that there was four hits...blow the whistle and make the call. The final outcome is to GET THE CALL RIGHT!
__________________
Jan G. Filip - San Jose, CA
EBVOA Rules Interpreter Emeritus
NCS Volleyball Officials Coordinating Committee Recorder
CIF State Volleyball State Championships Referee (2005), Scorekeeper (2006-2007) & Libero Tracker (2010)
PAVO State Referee (2014) / PAVO Certified Scorekeeper (2014) / PAVO Certified Line Judge (2012)
USAV Junior National Referee (resigned 2013) / USAV National Scorekeeper (2014)
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Sun Sep 11, 2011, 02:39am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 100
I'm going to disagree with those stating to blow the whistle. This is where having a pre-match discussion comes in handy. If your R1 has asked you to blow your whistle on said instances, then by all means, go ahead, but from the sound of things, this wasn't discussed.

As the R2, you can only do so much to protect your partner until eventually, they have to fly on their own without your help. Perhaps everyone in the gym, including yourself was in the worst position to see it, and the R1 ultimately did not see, does not agree with the four contacts.

Now you've blown your whistle, your R1 is confused as to why, so now you have to explain it to the R1 and the coaches, delay the match, and you not only undermine your R1's credibility in front of everyone, but if she ultimately disagrees and decides to reject your 4th call, now you both look incompetent. Blowing your whistle, unless specifically authorized to is a big no no.

Here's what I would've done:

- Stepped to the fault side with 4
- After the R1 does not recognize me, make my view and presence more known (without drawing attention to myself) by stepping out a little bit and NOT moving, eyes focused on her with attentiveness (O_O expression) with the "4" symbol still in place on the chest. Wait until the rally ended for the R1 to refocus on me prior to awarding the point. There's a difference from an R1 not noticing you, and and R1 who chooses not to notice you. If she sees you and does not call it and continues to follow the rally along its progress, DROP the 4 call. However, if she still hasn't made eye contact, noticed you, remain standing there (DON'T MOVE) until either she does herself, or when the rally comes to end when she centers back on you.
- Now she sees me standing there giving her 4 contact information
- If she rejects it SHE has to eat it, not you as the R2 (there are some things you can take the heat for, and some you can't)
- If she wants to know more, she'll invite me across to explain it to which she'll either reject or accept.

Communication to the coaches:

As the R2, I've been trained to speak as little words to the coach as possible (10 words or less usually). That being said my communication to the coaches would've been as follows. This is a good tip to keep yourself out of the call (if it goes wrong; rejection) and to keep yourself from babbling on your explanation to the coaches (who are heated now).

If the call was accepted:

- I had 4 contacts and the R1 confirmed the same thing (especially since you as the R2 are adamant that this happened, you BETTER be ready to explain it to the dogs on your side, otherwise, they will rip you a new one).

If the call was rejected:

- The R1 had only 3 contacts from her view (keeps you out of it, especially if you've attempted to reason with the R1) without lying and providing more information than necessary. Most coaches can't comeback from that. The one's that can may come back with "BUT YOU SAW IT, DIDN'T YOU?" This is where your partner eats the call because the decision ultimately relied on her. All you have to do is say it again "Coach, the R1 had only 3 contacts from her view."

Coaches, and players the like, need to then move on and accept the decision. It's unsportsmanlike to show disgust with an official's call, so if the questioning continues, it's a simple, "Coach, we need to move on."

Though I do agree against the dreaded replay, I strongly disagree with the "blow your whistle and make the call yourself" note, as that opens up an entire can of mess, that you now have to prepare to eat in front of everyone in the gym.

Last edited by Antonio.King; Sun Sep 11, 2011 at 03:05am.
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old Mon Sep 12, 2011, 01:41pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: South Dakota
Posts: 173
In the previous play, I did give the discreet 4 hits signal to my partner and I don't know if she didn't see me or chose to ignore it. I appreciate the points about standing there and not continuing to move with the play as I normally would as R2. I will do this next time (which hopefully there will not be !!). I tend to agree with the last poster about not blowing the whistle in that situation for the reasons given, but can also see where that would be acceptable if pregamed with your partner. I'll also agree that going with a replay was probably not the correct decision. Thanks to all who gave their input, and I'll continue to check for other comments.
__________________
I'm due to make a great call. After all, I've been officiating a long time !!!
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old Wed Sep 14, 2011, 10:46am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Glendale, AZ
Posts: 2,672
I had a similar situation in a HS match last week.

Team R passes, sets, attacks, the ball hits near the top of the net and rebounds back to R's court. I (R1) saw a Team S player up for the block and believe that I saw her touch the ball prior to it rebounding off of the net.

My R2 and I have worked together for several years and have a very good rapport and enjoy working with each other. She blows her whistle and gives me the 4 hits signal. I immediately go with her call and award the rally to Team S. We discussed this later and she told me from her angle there was absolutely no touch of the ball by Team S.

I believe that if I had called her over to discuss the call, then at that point, we are going to have to deal with an unpleasant situation no matter what we decide. I would rather award the rally and keep the set going in this situation.

For the record, I am not averse to dealing with unpleasant situations as an official, I just think that in this particular instance, we can avoid it.

My take on this is, as R2, discreetly give the 4 signal if you are 100% sure of the call, if your R1 does not see or recognize you, blow the whistle and stop play.
__________________
It's what you learn after you think you know it all that's important!
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old Thu Sep 15, 2011, 05:03am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 100
Another issue you run into when blowing your whistle as the R2 for '4 contacts' is just that; the determination of illegal number of contacts does not fall under the responsibility of the R2, but the R1.

The ONLY times an R2 is allowed to blow their whistle to end a play:

- Net violation
- Illegal Alignment
- Center line Violation
- Illegal Attacks
- Illegal Blocks
- Balls that hit the floor (though you have to let your partner get the first crack at it. If they don't, then you can call it)

That being said, the R2 is not authorized by the rules to make that call. Coaches, who know the rules in and out, will surely belt "that's not your call to make" (I've seen this happen before). This is in fact protestable if you were to blow your whistle on said call as the R2.

If it were a heated game, and I were the coach that you called that against, I would challenge you with a protest, knowing the R2 doesn't have authority to call that. You can suggest it to the R1, but you can't end the play under that authority.

If I were the R1, I'd have to call you over and explain that blowing your whistle on that type of play isn't the proper procedure, then have to issue a replay. Then, as the R2, you'd have to go explain to the coaches that you had an inadvertent whistle.

More reasons to hold your whistle; save your own butt.
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old Thu Sep 15, 2011, 01:18pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Columbus, OH area
Posts: 18
Look at the rules book, page 22, ART. 3 a: The second referee shall assist the first referee by ruling upon situations which are clearly out of the first referee's view.

This gives the R2 quite a lot of leeway in making calls which is why a good pregame meeting is needed in order to agree between R1 and R2 as to what is expected.
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old Fri Sep 16, 2011, 12:24am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 100
That sounds more applicable to screening situations.
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old Fri Sep 16, 2011, 01:32am
Resident VB Rules Guru
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: San Jose, CA - the Capital of Silicon Valley
Posts: 481
Send a message via AIM to MCBear Send a message via MSN to MCBear Send a message via Yahoo to MCBear Send a message via Skype™ to MCBear
Senor King...learn your NFHS Rules book. There is NO protest in NFHS Volleyball. Rule 11-3 gives the procedure for reviewing a decision.
__________________
Jan G. Filip - San Jose, CA
EBVOA Rules Interpreter Emeritus
NCS Volleyball Officials Coordinating Committee Recorder
CIF State Volleyball State Championships Referee (2005), Scorekeeper (2006-2007) & Libero Tracker (2010)
PAVO State Referee (2014) / PAVO Certified Scorekeeper (2014) / PAVO Certified Line Judge (2012)
USAV Junior National Referee (resigned 2013) / USAV National Scorekeeper (2014)
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old Fri Sep 16, 2011, 04:17am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 100
Quote:
Originally Posted by MCBear View Post
Senor King...learn your NFHS Rules book. There is NO protest in NFHS Volleyball. Rule 11-3 gives the procedure for reviewing a decision.
Considering no one stated this occurred in high school, I assumed it didn't. If there's no protest in HS then I obviously wouldn't be speaking about the HS level. I don't officiate high school so I wouldn't chime in and reference something I have no knowledge of even existing.

Though, I'll gladly heed your advice on learning NFHS book should I decide to pursue officiating at the high school level more frequently.
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old Fri Sep 16, 2011, 11:40am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: South Dakota
Posts: 173
FYI ... This was a high school match played under NFHS rules.
__________________
I'm due to make a great call. After all, I've been officiating a long time !!!
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old Mon Sep 19, 2011, 02:43pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Tustin, Michigan
Posts: 403
Quote:
Originally Posted by REFANDUMP View Post
Working last night as R2 and have the following play ... bump, bump, set, spike with ball remaining in play...but an obvious 4 hit play that wasn't called by my R1.
I know I already weighed in on this, but if it was THAT obvious; the opposing coach, players, and every fan in the stands would have been coming unglued at the lack of a call. If it was that obvious, and the R2 saw it, the R2 should should have called it. It's not that hard to count to 4!
__________________
"When I umpire I may not always be right, but I am always final!"
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:01pm.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1