Guys on Girls Team (NFHS)

[pavbref]

What is the policy for a guy on a girls high school team. At a tournament on Saturday, one team, playing a 5-1 offense had a guy playing setter. He had a 6 - 8 inch height advantage on the other players, and as his team got behind, he became more focused on hitting/blocking instead of setting.

What are the policies for this situation? Our chapter said we should have requested that the team produce a waiver stating that the state association approved of his play time, and without the waiver, he would sit on the bench.

Because of his height advantage, he could easily out hit the opponents, and he was prone to a back row attack above the net.

Thanks for your replies.

[FMadera]

That's up to your state association. It's not covered under NFHS rules.

[PaREF]

I've checked into the PIAA policy concerning boys playing on girls teams and girls playing on boys teams. Essentially it says that if a school does not offer an identical or comparable sport, girls may play on boys teams and vice-versa.

For instance, if a school has a boys and girls basketball team, girls must play on the gilrs team and boys must play on the boys team. Softball and baseball are considered comparable sports, so if a school has a girls softball team and a boys baseball team then girls may not play baseball and boys may not play softball.

Conversely, if the school has a girls soccer team or a girls volleyball team and does not have a boys soccer team or a boys volleyball team then boys are allowed to participate on those teams.

Your chapter has absolutely no right to put restrictions on his play. I'm sure he would love to play on a boys team sponsored by his school instead of the girls team. If your fellow officials are so concerned about this inequity, help him put pressure on his school's administration to start a boys volleyball team. We need more boys teams in Pennsylvania

[pavbref]

I understand what the official PIAA policy is, but our chapter has a strict view on player safety. Because of the size difference between this boy with respect to the girls around him and the lower net for the girls game, there is an increased risk for a hard driven ball to cause an injury. Also, the boy has a more powerful arm strength that gives his team an unfair advantage.

In our coverage area, we have several boys teams with girls on them. We also had a girls field hockey team with several boys on it, but because most of the schools in the area refused to play them--i.e. Forfeited, that school is not fielding a team this year due to a lack of players. The schools that refused to play claimed that it was unsafe for girls to play against boys.

If you look at USAV rules for coed teams, there are rules against the boys attacking the ball, and a higher net. You also have rules to negate any advantage the boys may have over a girl.

[PaREF]

What exactly do you mean when you say your chapter has a strict policy on safety? How do you expand on the NFHS or PIAA policies on safety? In our match last night my players "packed" three of our opponents. Would you have expected us to stop hitting because our hitters were too strong for them and put them at risk for an injury?

I'm sure that I have a much different view on this subject than the officials in your chapter. As well as being a PIAA official for 20 years, I have coached high school girls volleyball for the past five seasons and coached high school boys volleyball for the 14 years prior to that. When I coached boys in the spring I officiated girls in the fall and now that I coach girls in the fall I officiate boys in the spring.

During the time I coached boys we always had managers who played on the girls' volleyball team. Not only were they not afraid to jump in and join in a drill with the boys, they chomped at the bit to do it! They expected no quarter from the boys and they received none. They loved it. Oh yeah, in all those years and all those practices I don't ever recall one of them getting hurt. And if you think the height of the net had anything to do with it, you haven't seen enough quality boys volleyball.

Around here it is quite common (and encouraged by the girls' coaches) for girls to play along side and against boys. In fact, one local coach, whose school does not have a boys team, has always felt his arch-rival school has an unfair advantage over his team because they DO have a boys team. The girls and boys work and train together which helps the girls develop quicker reflexes.

The difference between volleyball and field hockey, basketball, soccer, etc is that the teams are separated by a net in volleyball. They're not muscling each other for position or for the same ball-unless there is a joust at the net. And there is just as much disparity in height among girls. I have a 5'4" right side blocker who will attempt to block our chief rival's 5'11" outside hitter. Can I ask your officials to ref that match and tell her she can't jump because she has an unfair advantage? That girl can hit as hard as I can and it might be a safety issue.

If the PIAA would adopt USAV rules instead of NFHS rules I would be all for it! I'd love to see co-ed volleyball. I have a bunch of boys at my school who would love to play volleyball but our A.D. is dead-set against it. They're not interested in taking the spots of any of the girls who do play but I'm sure they'd try out for a co-ed team.

I think your chapter's old guard needs to re-evaluate their condescending attitude toward female athletes. I see the same thing from alot of guys in our chapter who look at the high school girls they officiate as dainty, little princesses who are afraid to break a sweat. Trust me, they sweat and hustle and bleed like boys do. I've coached many girls who are every bit the warrior as the boys I've coached. The difference is that the girls go home after practice or games to take a shower, fix their hair, and change clothes to go out afterward. Boys just go out afterward, although they do (sometimes) change clothes first.

[pavbref]

I agree with everything that you are saying. My daughter played on the girls team and managed the boys team. She would come home from practice full of joy when see was able to block the 6-5 middle hitter on the boys team (shes only 5-4).

I don't have a problem letting the boys play, but we were scoulded by our chapter officials for allowing the boy to play at the tournament. I have been around as a coach for over 11 years and as an official for 2 years. My school AD won't allow the mixed practices anymore for fear of a lawsuit. The officers in my chapter also have been sued in the past. That is where the directive has it's orgin.

My neice and sister both play on coed USAV teams, and I enjoy the sport. However, a lot of schools around me are looking at dropping boys volleyball due to budget woes. They look at it as a sport without a lot of support. As an official, I can see where they are coming from as most of the schools attendance at matches are from parents of players and significant others.

[PaREF]

I'm glad you're not in the ranks of the fuddy-duddies!

I'm not a lawyer by any means but I think they may be courting a lawsuit with their attitudes. The PIAA policy explicitly allows boys to play on girls teams (under these circumstances). If an official decides that he will refuse to allow this boy to play, I would think that the boy would certainly have a valid case if he chose to sue the official. I can't see where the official would have any legitimate defense and I would say that the PIAA would not back him since he is violating their policy.

Conversely, If a poor, defenseless princess got hurt by the big, bad boy I can't see how the official would be liable since he is following PIAA's written policy. I can possibly see the PIAA being sued and held liable for writing the policy but not the official for following it.

[Toadman15241]

Originally Posted by PaREF

What exactly do you mean when you say your chapter has a strict policy on safety? How do you expand on the NFHS or PIAA policies on safety? In our match last night my players "packed" three of our opponents. Would you have expected us to stop hitting because our hitters were too strong for them and put them at risk for an injury?

I'm sure that I have a much different view on this subject than the officials in your chapter. As well as being a PIAA official for 20 years, I have coached high school girls volleyball for the past five seasons and coached high school boys volleyball for the 14 years prior to that. When I coached boys in the spring I officiated girls in the fall and now that I coach girls in the fall I officiate boys in the spring.

During the time I coached boys we always had managers who played on the girls' volleyball team. Not only were they not afraid to jump in and join in a drill with the boys, they chomped at the bit to do it! They expected no quarter from the boys and they received none. They loved it. Oh yeah, in all those years and all those practices I don't ever recall one of them getting hurt. And if you think the height of the net had anything to do with it, you haven't seen enough quality boys volleyball.

Around here it is quite common (and encouraged by the girls' coaches) for girls to play along side and against boys. In fact, one local coach, whose school does not have a boys team, has always felt his arch-rival school has an unfair advantage over his team because they DO have a boys team. The girls and boys work and train together which helps the girls develop quicker reflexes.

The difference between volleyball and field hockey, basketball, soccer, etc is that the teams are separated by a net in volleyball. They're not muscling each other for position or for the same ball-unless there is a joust at the net. And there is just as much disparity in height among girls. I have a 5'4" right side blocker who will attempt to block our chief rival's 5'11" outside hitter. Can I ask your officials to ref that match and tell her she can't jump because she has an unfair advantage? That girl can hit as hard as I can and it might be a safety issue.

If the PIAA would adopt USAV rules instead of NFHS rules I would be all for it! I'd love to see co-ed volleyball. I have a bunch of boys at my school who would love to play volleyball but our A.D. is dead-set against it. They're not interested in taking the spots of any of the girls who do play but I'm sure they'd try out for a co-ed team.

I think your chapter's old guard needs to re-evaluate their condescending attitude toward female athletes. I see the same thing from alot of guys in our chapter who look at the high school girls they officiate as dainty, little princesses who are afraid to break a sweat. Trust me, they sweat and hustle and bleed like boys do. I've coached many girls who are every bit the warrior as the boys I've coached. The difference is that the girls go home after practice or games to take a shower, fix their hair, and change clothes to go out afterward. Boys just go out afterward, although they do (sometimes) change clothes first.

What association? I'll report it to the PIAA and we will see how they react. I have a feeling that your association would be banned from doing PIAA matches in the future.

[jkumpire]

This whole issue is a result of the horrible Titile IX, and IMO what's good for the goose is good for the gander. If there is no guys VB, then let a guy play on the girl's team. If he is strong enough to take the abuse for doing it off the court, and he loves the game enough to want to play it, let him have at it.