Identifying illegal back row attacks

[BearBoy]

I don't know if you VB vets have a good way to identify illegal back row player attacks......but if you do, would you share your tips?

[DaveASA/FED]

Not sure i am a vet....but I have two things I do.

1) I find a "key" player to remember either a hard hitter or the setter then you get a feel for who is to their right and left and you can know where they are on the court.

2) I use the wheel as a line up tool and glancing down I can get back row players in my head quick

So something like this goes through my head, ok 7 is back left I got 7,10,18 as back row....then on the other side 8 is front row so 9, 1 and 12 are my back row......so if they do anything wrong I got them!

[Back In The Saddle]

I'm hardly a vet yet either, but here's what I do:

Like Dave, I use the wheel, which I think is a fantastic invention. But it's not like you have time to check everybody every serve to see where they are in the rotation.

Mostly, I use it to track my setter and opposite.

I try to keep the numbers of the two who are front row in my head. So if blue's setter is 12 and her opposite is 7, and red's setter is 4 and opposite is 11, then on any given serve I'll note that 12 is back row, and 11 is back row. So I'm saying to myself, "7, 4. 7, 4. 7, 4."

It's really not all that useful to me when I'm R2. But it's good practice for me for when I'm R1. I don't have my wheel when I'm up, but I identify setter and opposite. Each serve I find my setter and opposite, and remember the numbers of the front row players. Then with each hit, I try to identify "front" or "back", saying the word in my mind.

Obviously at first, I'm identifying only one or two of the hits. But soon I begin to recognize who are the hitters that go with 12 and which go with 11. It's far from foolproof, but I feel like I'm starting to recognize alignments and identify hits as front or back row more frequently.

Don't know if any of that helps or not. I'm interested to learn what actual vets are doing

[BlitzkriegBob]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

I try to keep the numbers of the two who are front row in my head. So if blue's setter is 12 and her opposite is 7, and red's setter is 4 and opposite is 11, then on any given serve I'll note that 12 is back row, and 11 is back row. So I'm saying to myself, "7, 4. 7, 4. 7, 4."

It's really not all that useful to me when I'm R2. But it's good practice for me for when I'm R1. I don't have my wheel when I'm up, but I identify setter and opposite. Each serve I find my setter and opposite, and remember the numbers of the front row players. Then with each hit, I try to identify "front" or "back", saying the word in my mind.

I'm not a vet either, but this is exactly what I do. I admit that I'm lacking in identifying BRA and BRB. For some reason, I seem to be able to better identify back row players as R1 than as R2. I don't know if it's the vantage point from the stand or not having to worry about subs and timeouts, but it just seems so much clearer as R1. Heck, maybe it's because I don't have a card! I have found that using the signal for legal BRA helps me out also, though I try to use it only as clarification as Felix suggests.

Part of the problem I think I am still not completely comfortable with BRA and BRB is that I work about 20-25 matches and maybe 4-5 tournaments over a two month period. About half of those are MS matches, which are no help when it comes to seeing attacks or blocks by ANY player. Then I get a few varsity matches where one player from each team may be able to jump high enough to attack the ball above the height of the net. I'm not kidding.

As far as a wheel, I've tried it a few times but I just feel more comfortable with a card. I almost tried a wheel tonight but I chickened out at the last minute. I bought one of those dry-erase wheels before the season but have yet to try it out. I wish that I could have that light bulb turn on for me so that I could actually track everyone without a card or wheel, but I just don't see it happening. I can remember the starting lineups for both teams in the 1975 World Series (neither of which were my beloved Astros), but no matter how hard I try as soon as we get 2 points in to the match I feel fortunate to be able to track setters and opposites for both teams.

[Andy]

I follow the setter(s).

In my experience, most of your back row attack fouls (and back row blocker fouls) are from a back row setter up near the net. I also try to do something similar to Dave and keep track of the big hitters and when they rotate to the back row as well.

It does take practice and concentration, but keep at it...it will come to you.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by DaveASA/FED

2) I use the wheel as a line up tool and glancing down I can get back row players in my head quick

Ok, I used the wheel in my game tonight (I was R2 for the varsity). It was not horrible, but I had two problems.

1) I felt like I didn't really have enough time between points to use it effectively. I couldn't write down the subs, for example. And also, while it helped me identify the back row players, I had a much harder time remembering who was supposed to be "opposite" each other. So the result was that I had a grasp of the back row, but had no idea if the front row was aligned properly.

2) First words out of my partner's mouth after the match (when I asked if he had any things for me to work on), "Try to get out of the habit of using the wheel." It was not said in a condescending way. He said that it's too easy to become dependent on it, so it's better just to figure it out without using the wheel at all.

So now, once again, I don't know what do.

BTW, this partner was excellent to work with. Helpful when asked, but not overbearing or overly-critical. He called a couple position faults when I was unsure, but other than that he let me live and die with my own calls.

He also happens to be the boys' volleyball assignor in the Spring. I'm not sure if I helped or hurt my cause today.

[jkumpire]

If you get comfortable with the wheel use it. Your assigner is not going to mark you down and stick you only with MS games if you use it. the idea is to get the call right, not always how you get there.

AS to using the BRA sign, our officials are right, you do not always have to use the legal BRA sign, but you have leeway on when to use it:

Case book/Manual p. 70:

"7. LEGAL BACK-ROW ATTACK — Arm on attacker’s side of
net is extended parallel to the floor at chest level, palm
down. Then make one slight horizontal sweeping motion
when, in the judgment of the official, it is needed to
indicate a legal back row attacker."

If you are learning to see BRA's use the sign when in your judgment you need to acknowledge the BRA. For our veteran officials, it won't be as often as you. But until you have it down, IMO call it when you see it no matter what.
"Best practice" says you use when you need to, I agree. And you will use it less and less over time, until you can easily strive for best practice every time.

[Back In The Saddle]

It took me a couple of matches to get comfortable using the wheel. And, as you witnessed, it becomes less effective if your partner has a quick tempo. Here's a few things I've done to adapt.

* I've gone to matches on my non-game days to practice using it. That has helped me get faster at using it.
* I keep my pencil in my front pocket, always open (I use bullet pencils), where I can reach it very quickly.
* I circle the setter, kinda dark so I can see at a glance where she's supposed to be.
* In a blank area of the card I write the setter and her opposite's numbers, as a fraction. So I don't have to "find" them on the wheel when I need a quick memory jog.
* I note subs on my wheel while I'm reporting them to the table. I don't give the court back until I've recorded them (I try not to slow my partner's tempo, but I've got work to do too).
* I don't erase subs when the original player returns. So I'm never writing a sub down more than once. I may pick up the wrong number the first time I glance at the card, but when I realize I'm seeing the wrong player, I know exactly where to glance back to on the card to pick up the right one.
* I draw a triangle in the pie slice where the libero serves. That's helped me catch the libero serving in multiple positions before. Many scorekeepers don't know about this rule and therefore can't help you out.
* Everything written after the game begins is kinda chicken scratch because I'm hurrying, but as long as I can make it out...
* Sometimes I have to wait a point or two before I have time to note something on my wheel, but there's always a 2-3 second break soon you can use
* I ask my scorekeeper before the game to be prepared to tell me who the next server is for either team. So if I'm suddenly unsure my wheel is up to date, I can quickly verify.
* I'll be danged if I don't consistently forget to advance my wheel whenever there's a side out and a sub at the same time. Grrrr

It's not perfect. But I'm a LOT better with it than without it. With use, some things have begun to click. With repetition I've learned where to expect to find the setter in each position. Now, instead of holding up the card searching the floor, the wheel reminds me of her position and I know where to look. It's starting to become automatic to pick up the number of the most obvious overlap when I get the setter's position. With this automaticity, now I have time to glance back at the wheel to pick up the number of the less obvious overlap. After a while the players that lead and follow the setter are committed to memory. That allows me, using the card and what the card has helped me commit to memory, to very quickly verify four of the six players' locations before the serve.

Next emphasis for me, I think, is tracking front row/back row better. I already keep track of my setter, and usually her opposite (if I haven't consciously noted the opposite's location, I at least recognize her and know she's opposite). So it should be a fairly straightforward leap to knowing whether her leader and follower are also FR/BR. Having said that, you watch...it'll take 3 more years to get that part

If a rally goes more than 2-3 points, the wheel is starting to go in my pocket as I know that alignment and don't need the card.

I expect I will eventually be able to track and recognize enough on my own that the wheel will spend most of the time in my pocket. Eventually I'll "get lazy" and stop bothering to fill in the lineup, since I'm not really using it. Then I'll stop carrying it altogether. Maybe that'll be this season, maybe not.

I wouldn't worry too much about what your P said, at least not today. He's right in that we shouldn't become utterly dependent on it. But why not use it to speed the process of no longer needing it.

Just my $0.025

[refnrev]

BITS,
I never got comfortable using the wheel... it just took too much time and was hard for me to keep up with subs on it... so I stuck to 3x5 cards. What helps me, even though it's still not something I can see in my sleep like offiside in soccer, is to follow the big hitters rather than setters. I've found that a really good big hitter up front will often try to be a really good big hitter from the back row in front of the attack line. I was actually able to see pretty clearly some close but legal BR attacks. As for Scrappy, unless he's got us all hoodwinked, he's a good official who takes officiating seriously and wants to get better in all sports.
Scrappy, it does get easier every game every year for me. I think it will you, too. Also, HS V demands that you see it much more than Jr. High so it becomes easier as you must be more focused. rr

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by BearBoy

I don't know if you VB vets have a good way to identify illegal back row player attacks......but if you do, would you share your tips?

People often ask me, "What's it like to ref volleyball? Pretty easy, right?" I always say that many parts are incredibly easy, and a few are impossible.

Identifying back row attack is impossible for me. I honestly don't even try to do it in a match, because I'm worried that I'll be trying so hard to find the back row, that I'll miss something obvious.

After reading the suggestions here, it doesn't really seem to make it any more possible. You still have to remember -- during the play -- the 6 players (half the people out there) who can't attack from in front of the attack line. (With liberos, it's only slightly less impossible -- only 4 to remember.) I readily admit that I am not capable of this.

Heck, there are many times as R2 when I can't even identify the back row of the receiving team before the serve. So how am I supposed to remember them during the play?

Personally, I find the whole thing unnecessary. Just put 6 players out there, make sure they serve in order, and let everyone just do what they do best. Making your best hitter play the back row for half the match is like making your quarterback play left tackle every other down. Does it add strategy? Sure. Does it make the playing of the game any better? Not that I can tell. It just makes administration of the game unnecessarily complicated.

[Retrozetti]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Identifying back row attack is impossible for me. I honestly don't even try to do it in a match, because I'm worried that I'll be trying so hard to find the back row, that I'll miss something obvious.

Personally, I find the whole thing unnecessary. Just put 6 players out there, make sure they serve in order, and let everyone just do what they do best. Making your best hitter play the back row for half the match is like making your quarterback play left tackle every other down. Does it add strategy? Sure. Does it make the playing of the game any better? Not that I can tell. It just makes administration of the game unnecessarily complicated.

Ouch ! It hurts to even read this. Scrapper, you definitely don't want me as a coach on your match, because if you allow an opponent's back row player to make an illegal back-row attack, I will blow a gasket, and you will be fully deserving of it. And I'll say it point blank... as an official, you're not supposed to "choose to call the faults that you want, and allow other faults because you don't even try and you find it unnecessary." It is necessary on so many levels that conradict your reasoning:
1. It makes administration of the game unnecessarily complicated - On the contrary, allowing faults to occur causes serious coach, team and spectator pandemonium and outrage against the officiating crew, and you create the possibility of complete loss of control of the match.
2. You severely tarnish the trust given to the officials by the sporting administration and schools/clubs. YOUR lack of desire to enforce the printed rules makes ALL OF US look bad. Can you think of a basketball official in the news lately?
3. Does it make the playing of the game any better? - More to the point, if you don't call back-row attacks, you now have 5-6 hitters against the opposing team which is adhering to the rules and allowing themselves only front-row hitters.
4. Where does it end? - Why not allow back-row blockers and Libero blockers.

Since you are so comfortable allowing, and not even bothering to look for illegal back-row attacks, then I invite you to, at least, be up-front and honest with the coaches & captains at your pre-match coin-toss. To be fair to both teams, inform them that you will not be looking for illegal back-row attacks because you find it unnecessary. I definitely want to be in the audience at that match.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Retrozetti

And I'll say it point blank... as an official, you're not supposed to "choose to call the faults that you want, and allow other faults because you don't even try and you find it unnecessary."

I'm "sure" (based on conversations with him in other forums) that Scrapper meant that if he were made "god of the volleyball rules" that he would CHANGE the rules to allow any offensive and defensive line-up / block / attack, except that he'd still require the 6 players (and subs) to take turns serving.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I'm "sure" (based on conversations with him in other forums) that Scrapper meant that if he were made "god of the volleyball rules" that he would CHANGE the rules to allow any offensive and defensive line-up / block / attack, except that he'd still require the 6 players (and subs) to take turns serving.

That was my impression of his post as well.

[Retrozetti]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I'm "sure" (based on conversations with him in other forums) that Scrapper meant that if he were made "god of the volleyball rules" that he would CHANGE the rules to allow any offensive and defensive line-up / block / attack, except that he'd still require the 6 players (and subs) to take turns serving.

Hi Bob. Unfortunately, you are misunderstanding what Scrapper said... he didn't say "if"... his exact words are, "I honestly don't even try to do it in a match." He "is" doing this presently. As an official opting to ignore definite faults that cause an "absolute unfair advantage" to the attacking team, he is failing at his duties, cheating the players of a fairly officiated match, and defying his officiating oath. Scrapper cannot be defended for "choosing" to poorly perform his duties... it is an ongoing learning process... and if you choose to stop improving and opt instead to allow faults to occur unpenalized, it is time to hang up the whistle, for the sake of the sport, the teams, and the officials.

[MCBear]

for me to recognize a back-row attack/back-row block and once I had done it, I kept trying to figure out how I had done it. I struggled with it for the whole fifth season (can you say 1987???).

When someone told me to keep track of the setter, things suddenly became a LOT clearer. I was able to begin working with my wheel to recognize and even to call the violation.

It was 1995, I think, when I first became aware that I needed to figure out a method of tracking all six service rotations l This was hastened by an incident in a college match where my partner was late and did not arrive until the third game of the match. I had no problems during the first two games, but during the third, there was a collision under the net. After sorting things out and be assured that neither player was injured, we played on. The visiting team was serving and, when I looked at the server, something just didn't look right to me. I asked my partner if this was the correct server and he said "yes". I still wasn't sure so I asked again and he still said, "yes?" We played on and the visitor ended up winning the third game (they had been down 2-0 before this game). I got down off the stand and went across to the table because I had been seeing match-ups during the serves that I had not been seeing all night previously. I got to the scoretable and found out that the person doing the scoring had NO IDEA how to do book! She had written some things downs during the match to this point, but had not recorded the service procedure correctly in a single game prior to this. Bottom line is that this particular game, with its wrong rotations not caught, I began learning how to track all six rotations for both teams on the court so that I would not get burned again.