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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Fri May 31, 2019, 09:36pm
Lighten up, Francis.
 
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Never seen before

Tonight, I was LJ1 and saw a play that I have honestly never seen before at any level. The ball is being played on my side of the court. The ball is passed to the setter, the ball is set to a back-row hitter who is just behind the 3 meter line, more or less right in front of me. The hitter attacks the ball.

So far, nothing unusual.

However, as the back-row player is attacking the ball, the front-row player in front of him is jumping to FAKE the attack. When the back-row player contacts the ball, the ball then glances off the forearm of the faking front-row player.

There is no whistle from the R1 and no signal from the R2. The R1 is a great official. To make matters worse, it was match point. (It was 25-10, so it didn't affect the game, but still.) We talked about it after the match. R1 had moved his eyes to the other side of the net, and the R2 was focused on the blocking action at the net. I only saw it because both players were in my direct line of sight for the whole play.

Is there ANY way that I can or should indicate this fault to one of the referees? I'm 99% sure that the answer is no, but I feel like this is important enough to warrant as much as input as the referees can get.
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Old Fri May 31, 2019, 10:30pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrapper1 View Post
Tonight, I was LJ1 and saw a play that I have honestly never seen before at any level. The ball is being played on my side of the court. The ball is passed to the setter, the ball is set to a back-row hitter who is just behind the 3 meter line, more or less right in front of me. The hitter attacks the ball.

So far, nothing unusual.

However, as the back-row player is attacking the ball, the front-row player in front of him is jumping to FAKE the attack. When the back-row player contacts the ball, the ball then glances off the forearm of the faking front-row player.

There is no whistle from the R1 and no signal from the R2. The R1 is a great official. To make matters worse, it was match point. (It was 25-10, so it didn't affect the game, but still.) We talked about it after the match. R1 had moved his eyes to the other side of the net, and the R2 was focused on the blocking action at the net. I only saw it because both players were in my direct line of sight for the whole play.

Is there ANY way that I can or should indicate this fault to one of the referees? I'm 99% sure that the answer is no, but I feel like this is important enough to warrant as much as input as the referees can get.
No. Four hits isn't a line judge call.
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  #3 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jun 01, 2019, 06:27am
Lighten up, Francis.
 
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Originally Posted by FMadera View Post
Four hits isn't a line judge call.
Obviously

And I knew that would be the answer I would get. But it does seem like there should be some mechanism to provide important information to the referees. I don't line judge a lot in HS, except during the post-season. But in my limited career, this is the second time that I've seen a non-judgment fault but been unable to help the referees.

Just seems like a flaw to me. You've got 4 very good experienced officials out there. Wouldn't you want to get that info? I know I would if I were R1.
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Old Sat Jun 01, 2019, 08:21am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrapper1 View Post
Obviously

And I knew that would be the answer I would get. But it does seem like there should be some mechanism to provide important information to the referees. I don't line judge a lot in HS, except during the post-season. But in my limited career, this is the second time that I've seen a non-judgment fault but been unable to help the referees.

Just seems like a flaw to me. You've got 4 very good experienced officials out there. Wouldn't you want to get that info? I know I would if I were R1.
If your R1 calls you over and asks you for information, your certainly allowed to answer whatever question is posed to you. But that wasn't really what you asked. You wouldn't give info on double contacts, right?
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  #5 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jun 01, 2019, 09:40am
Lighten up, Francis.
 
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Originally Posted by FMadera View Post
If your R1 calls you over and asks you for information, your certainly allowed to answer whatever question is posed to you.
Absolutely. But if the R1 doesn't realize that I have the answer to an important question, s/he has no way to get that info. That seems like a hole in the system to me.

Quote:
You wouldn't give info on double contacts, right?
Absolutely not. But that's usually a judgment call. I'm talking non-judgment.
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Old Sat Jun 01, 2019, 11:24am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrapper1 View Post
Absolutely. But if the R1 doesn't realize that I have the answer to an important question, s/he has no way to get that info. That seems like a hole in the system to me.



Absolutely not. But that's usually a judgment call. I'm talking non-judgment.
Touches and in/out are judgment too. Most of what we call is judgment.

Another example: If you see a player in the antenna, that's not your call to signal. But if your R1 calls you over to ask what happened, you are free to then say what you saw. The R1 can then use that information to make a final decision, you just can't signal it since it's not in your duties.
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  #7 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jun 08, 2019, 09:43am
Lighten up, Francis.
 
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Originally Posted by FMadera View Post
Touches and in/out are judgment too. Most of what we call is judgment.
I'm going to disagree with this. In/out is not judgment. It's in or it's out. It touched the line or it didn't. Touches are not judgment. The ball was touched or it was not. We might miss it, but we never say "the ball hit the line but not enough to call it in".

Doubles are judgment, because if it weren't, EVERY single overhand two-handed set would be a double. The ball NEVER touches both hands at the exact same nanosecond. We're allowed to decide if it was "close enough" to be legal. We're not allowed to decide if a ball was "touched enough" to be called a touch.

You have to understand that the vast majority of my officiating experience is with basketball. A basketball crew is much more of a team than a volleyball crew. In basketball, if my partner has important information s/he is expected to bring it to me. (Or sometimes even to blow the whistle right in front of me!) It doesn't matter if it was his/her primary responsibility or not. As a volleyball R1, if I walked off the court and my R2 or LJ told me in the locker room that he knew the game-ending point should've been four contacts, I'd be pissed.

I brought this scenario to another excellent official that I respect a lot. He said pretty much the same thing as you did. However, he said that maybe I could've put 4 fingers down by my leg, while holding the flag in my other hand to try to get the R1 to call me over. I doubt this will ever happen to me again, but if it does, I will try to remember to do this.
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  #8 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jun 10, 2019, 11:56am
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I'm curious. If you are a line judge watching your antenna and your line, how do you see a ball graze a forearm above the net in the middle of the court?
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Old Tue Jun 11, 2019, 09:26pm
Lighten up, Francis.
 
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Originally Posted by genetoy71 View Post
I'm curious. If you are a line judge watching your antenna and your line, how do you see a ball graze a forearm above the net in the middle of the court?
Before I reply, is this a serious question because you really don't know what a line judge would be looking at? Or is this a sarcastic comment to imply that I should not have been looking at a ball being played at the net?
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Old Thu Jun 13, 2019, 10:50am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by genetoy71 View Post
I'm curious. If you are a line judge watching your antenna and your line, how do you see a ball graze a forearm above the net in the middle of the court?
If that's all you think a line judge should focus on, I'm going to guess you're missing a lot of touches off the block when you line judge.
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  #11 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jun 13, 2019, 10:56am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrapper1 View Post
You have to understand that the vast majority of my officiating experience is with basketball. A basketball crew is much more of a team than a volleyball crew. In basketball, if my partner has important information s/he is expected to bring it to me. (Or sometimes even to blow the whistle right in front of me!) It doesn't matter if it was his/her primary responsibility or not. As a volleyball R1, if I walked off the court and my R2 or LJ told me in the locker room that he knew the game-ending point should've been four contacts, I'd be pissed.
R2 and Line Judge are not the same. You shouldn't act as if they are, or that they have the responsibilities. And no, I don't have anything at all against line judges; I'm a certified line judge, and when I line judge, it's hard to get out of "referee mode," but I have to keep within the confines of what my responsibilities are for that match.

If your R2 didn't give you this information, by all means, be upset. The line judge simply does not offer this information unsolicited. That doesn't mean you can't answer the question if asked. But you wouldn't offer up a net call either, even if you saw it.

Again, if the R1 calls you over and asks what happen, you can sing like a bird. But it is not the job of the line judge to insist on it, as it wouldn't be the job of your scorer in basketball to tell you about a foul or double dribble.

You can continue to disagree, and that's fine. You asked, I'm giving you an answer based on experience. Up to you what to do with it.
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  #12 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jun 13, 2019, 12:54pm
Lighten up, Francis.
 
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Originally Posted by FMadera View Post

You can continue to disagree, and that's fine. You asked, I'm giving you an answer based on experience. Up to you what to do with it.
Felix, I'm not disagreeing with your answer. As I said in my very first post, I was 99% sure that's what the answer would be. What I am saying is that I feel like there should be some mechanism to get critical, non-judgment information to a referee to avoid a similar situation.

There's SO much responsibility on the R1 to call so much of the court. It just feels like we're limiting ourselves unnecessarily by not providing a way for the R1 to get information.

I just thought of this analogy. (So it might not be a very good one, but here goes.) In the Saints/Rams NFC Conference Championship game, near the end of regulation, when an OBVIOUS defensive pass interference foul was not called on the field. But there was nothing to do about it because PI is not reviewable by rule. There was an obvious call to be made, but there was no mechanism that allowed the officials to access the information to correct the call.

My play is exactly the same. There's an obvious call to be made, somebody HAS the necessary information, but the system doesn't allow the official to access the information.

Almost everybody realized almost right away that the NFL situation was ridiculous. Yet, we're fine with it in my situation. It just seems like there could be some fine-tuning.

I don't even know what the fine-tuning would be. I just hate the idea of getting to the locker room and realizing I missed a call when somebody on my crew could've saved me.
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Old Thu Jun 13, 2019, 01:09pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrapper1 View Post
Felix, I'm not disagreeing with your answer. As I said in my very first post, I was 99% sure that's what the answer would be. What I am saying is that I feel like there should be some mechanism to get critical, non-judgment information to a referee to avoid a similar situation.

There's SO much responsibility on the R1 to call so much of the court. It just feels like we're limiting ourselves unnecessarily by not providing a way for the R1 to get information.

I just thought of this analogy. (So it might not be a very good one, but here goes.) In the Saints/Rams NFC Conference Championship game, near the end of regulation, when an OBVIOUS defensive pass interference foul was not called on the field. But there was nothing to do about it because PI is not reviewable by rule. There was an obvious call to be made, but there was no mechanism that allowed the officials to access the information to correct the call.

My play is exactly the same. There's an obvious call to be made, somebody HAS the necessary information, but the system doesn't allow the official to access the information.

Almost everybody realized almost right away that the NFL situation was ridiculous. Yet, we're fine with it in my situation. It just seems like there could be some fine-tuning.

I don't even know what the fine-tuning would be. I just hate the idea of getting to the locker room and realizing I missed a call when somebody on my crew could've saved me.
Perhaps the best takeaway here is include that in your prematch discussion, how to convey information in an unorthodox situation. I include, for example, as R2, how to tell my R1, "Look, I'm pretty sure there was a touch, but I'm not wanting to go alone on this, so if you have the same feeling, call touch, and I'll deal with the coaches."

Maybe if you can include these questions/answers in your prematch, it might help to lower the probability of something like this happening in your match in the future. Good lesson for everyone.
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  #14 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jun 14, 2019, 07:42am
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Scrapper,

At the top levels of our game, instant replay challenge would have allowed the officiating team to get your situation right, like the NFL is trying to do. At levels where I call, high school volleyball and baseball participants are just going to have to live with the hopefully rare bad call by an official.

your comparison to the Rams/Saints missed call, would be more like an assistant official, the chain gang in football, with specific and limited responsibilities to support the on field officiating team offering an opinion to the back judge that missed the PI call rather than a basketball official reaching outside of his area to get a call.
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Old Sun Jun 16, 2019, 05:05pm
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I don't disagree with the idea of 'fine-tuning'. But just like everything else, the devil is in the details. Speaking specifically NFHS and NCAA, the R1 and R2 are assumed to be trained and paid officials. Line judges may or may not be trained and/or paid, so the level of expertise can vary widely and they are not held to the same standard as R1 and R2.

There are times when the line the line judge(s) is vastly more experienced than the R1 or R2 and there are times when the line judge has absolutely no training in volleyball whatsoever. My guess is that the rules-makers limit the line judge responsibilities due to the lack of expected or required training. If all line judges were required to have a certain level of certification then, perhaps their scope of responsibilities could be expanded.
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