Never seen before

[FMadera]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Absolutely. But if the R1 doesn't realize that I have the answer to an important question, s/he has no way to get that info. That seems like a hole in the system to me.



Absolutely not. But that's usually a judgment call. I'm talking non-judgment.

Touches and in/out are judgment too. Most of what we call is judgment.

Another example: If you see a player in the antenna, that's not your call to signal. But if your R1 calls you over to ask what happened, you are free to then say what you saw. The R1 can then use that information to make a final decision, you just can't signal it since it's not in your duties.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by FMadera

Touches and in/out are judgment too. Most of what we call is judgment.

I'm going to disagree with this. In/out is not judgment. It's in or it's out. It touched the line or it didn't. Touches are not judgment. The ball was touched or it was not. We might miss it, but we never say "the ball hit the line but not enough to call it in".

Doubles are judgment, because if it weren't, EVERY single overhand two-handed set would be a double. The ball NEVER touches both hands at the exact same nanosecond. We're allowed to decide if it was "close enough" to be legal. We're not allowed to decide if a ball was "touched enough" to be called a touch.

You have to understand that the vast majority of my officiating experience is with basketball. A basketball crew is much more of a team than a volleyball crew. In basketball, if my partner has important information s/he is expected to bring it to me. (Or sometimes even to blow the whistle right in front of me!) It doesn't matter if it was his/her primary responsibility or not. As a volleyball R1, if I walked off the court and my R2 or LJ told me in the locker room that he knew the game-ending point should've been four contacts, I'd be pissed.

I brought this scenario to another excellent official that I respect a lot. He said pretty much the same thing as you did. However, he said that maybe I could've put 4 fingers down by my leg, while holding the flag in my other hand to try to get the R1 to call me over. I doubt this will ever happen to me again, but if it does, I will try to remember to do this.

[FMadera]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

You have to understand that the vast majority of my officiating experience is with basketball. A basketball crew is much more of a team than a volleyball crew. In basketball, if my partner has important information s/he is expected to bring it to me. (Or sometimes even to blow the whistle right in front of me!) It doesn't matter if it was his/her primary responsibility or not. As a volleyball R1, if I walked off the court and my R2 or LJ told me in the locker room that he knew the game-ending point should've been four contacts, I'd be pissed.

R2 and Line Judge are not the same. You shouldn't act as if they are, or that they have the responsibilities. And no, I don't have anything at all against line judges; I'm a certified line judge, and when I line judge, it's hard to get out of "referee mode," but I have to keep within the confines of what my responsibilities are for that match.

If your R2 didn't give you this information, by all means, be upset. The line judge simply does not offer this information unsolicited. That doesn't mean you can't answer the question if asked. But you wouldn't offer up a net call either, even if you saw it.

Again, if the R1 calls you over and asks what happen, you can sing like a bird. But it is not the job of the line judge to insist on it, as it wouldn't be the job of your scorer in basketball to tell you about a foul or double dribble.

You can continue to disagree, and that's fine. You asked, I'm giving you an answer based on experience. Up to you what to do with it.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by FMadera

You can continue to disagree, and that's fine. You asked, I'm giving you an answer based on experience. Up to you what to do with it.

Felix, I'm not disagreeing with your answer. As I said in my very first post, I was 99% sure that's what the answer would be. What I am saying is that I feel like there should be some mechanism to get critical, non-judgment information to a referee to avoid a similar situation.

There's SO much responsibility on the R1 to call so much of the court. It just feels like we're limiting ourselves unnecessarily by not providing a way for the R1 to get information.

I just thought of this analogy. (So it might not be a very good one, but here goes.) In the Saints/Rams NFC Conference Championship game, near the end of regulation, when an OBVIOUS defensive pass interference foul was not called on the field. But there was nothing to do about it because PI is not reviewable by rule. There was an obvious call to be made, but there was no mechanism that allowed the officials to access the information to correct the call.

My play is exactly the same. There's an obvious call to be made, somebody HAS the necessary information, but the system doesn't allow the official to access the information.

Almost everybody realized almost right away that the NFL situation was ridiculous. Yet, we're fine with it in my situation. It just seems like there could be some fine-tuning.

I don't even know what the fine-tuning would be. I just hate the idea of getting to the locker room and realizing I missed a call when somebody on my crew could've saved me.

[FMadera]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Felix, I'm not disagreeing with your answer. As I said in my very first post, I was 99% sure that's what the answer would be. What I am saying is that I feel like there should be some mechanism to get critical, non-judgment information to a referee to avoid a similar situation.

There's SO much responsibility on the R1 to call so much of the court. It just feels like we're limiting ourselves unnecessarily by not providing a way for the R1 to get information.

I just thought of this analogy. (So it might not be a very good one, but here goes.) In the Saints/Rams NFC Conference Championship game, near the end of regulation, when an OBVIOUS defensive pass interference foul was not called on the field. But there was nothing to do about it because PI is not reviewable by rule. There was an obvious call to be made, but there was no mechanism that allowed the officials to access the information to correct the call.

My play is exactly the same. There's an obvious call to be made, somebody HAS the necessary information, but the system doesn't allow the official to access the information.

Almost everybody realized almost right away that the NFL situation was ridiculous. Yet, we're fine with it in my situation. It just seems like there could be some fine-tuning.

I don't even know what the fine-tuning would be. I just hate the idea of getting to the locker room and realizing I missed a call when somebody on my crew could've saved me.

Perhaps the best takeaway here is include that in your prematch discussion, how to convey information in an unorthodox situation. I include, for example, as R2, how to tell my R1, "Look, I'm pretty sure there was a touch, but I'm not wanting to go alone on this, so if you have the same feeling, call touch, and I'll deal with the coaches."

Maybe if you can include these questions/answers in your prematch, it might help to lower the probability of something like this happening in your match in the future. Good lesson for everyone.

[john5396]

Scrapper,

At the top levels of our game, instant replay challenge would have allowed the officiating team to get your situation right, like the NFL is trying to do. At levels where I call, high school volleyball and baseball participants are just going to have to live with the hopefully rare bad call by an official.

your comparison to the Rams/Saints missed call, would be more like an assistant official, the chain gang in football, with specific and limited responsibilities to support the on field officiating team offering an opinion to the back judge that missed the PI call rather than a basketball official reaching outside of his area to get a call.

[PaREF]

I don't disagree with the idea of 'fine-tuning'. But just like everything else, the devil is in the details. Speaking specifically NFHS and NCAA, the R1 and R2 are assumed to be trained and paid officials. Line judges may or may not be trained and/or paid, so the level of expertise can vary widely and they are not held to the same standard as R1 and R2.

There are times when the line the line judge(s) is vastly more experienced than the R1 or R2 and there are times when the line judge has absolutely no training in volleyball whatsoever. My guess is that the rules-makers limit the line judge responsibilities due to the lack of expected or required training. If all line judges were required to have a certain level of certification then, perhaps their scope of responsibilities could be expanded.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by FMadera

Perhaps the best takeaway here is include that in your prematch discussion, how to convey information in an unorthodox situation.

Great point, Felix. I've been LJ where I've had a really good pre-game, and when I've had a not-so-good pre-game. Adding "unorthodox situations" to the pre-game as an R1 is really good advice.

[FMadera]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Great point, Felix. I've been LJ where I've had a really good pre-game, and when I've had a not-so-good pre-game. Adding "unorthodox situations" to the pre-game as an R1 is really good advice.

I guess we can make another thread about this if we wanted, but it's always good to know the importance of a good prematch.

If, as R1, your prematch with your R2 consists of "watch the net, watch the center line...," you could not have just had a worse prematch. Assume your professional partner knows the bare minimum about their job.

Your prematch should cover as many of the things that could get you in trouble as is reasonable to cover, and how to handle those things. As R2, ask questions your R2 didn't cover, talk about how you communicate certain things, go over, "If I do this, it means this, you should probably do this."

With your line judges, talk about how you want things communicated from them, how you will communicate with them, etc.

R2, talk to your scorers. They don't know what you want/need if you don't tell them, and you had better make sure you know what THEY need as well. Your job is to give them the info the way they need it, not for them to take it how you give it.

Et cetera.