Unsure Ump on D3k

[alblueboy]

NFHS
Ball field is extremely dry and dusty. 1st base is open.

1 ball..2 strikes on batter. Next pitch is low and a cloud of dust arises on impact with additional dust as the catcher attempts to catch it.
Batter swings and runs to 1st. No play is attempted and the ball is returned to the pitcher in the circle.

BR thinks she is out and steps off. Coach at 3rd wants a ruling on the D3k. Time is called and PU goes to confer with FU. He states that he didn't see it. After a discussion it is ruled that the ball hit the ground first before the catch.

Question
Should BR be called out for a LBR violation??

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by alblueboy

NFHS
Ball field is extremely dry and dusty. 1st base is open.

1 ball..2 strikes on batter. Next pitch is low and a cloud of dust arises on impact with additional dust as the catcher attempts to catch it.
Batter swings and runs to 1st. No play is attempted and the ball is returned to the pitcher in the circle.

BR thinks she is out and steps off. Coach at 3rd wants a ruling on the D3k. Time is called and PU goes to confer with FU. He states that he didn't see it. After a discussion it is ruled that the ball hit the ground first before the catch.

Question
Should BR be called out for a LBR violation??

Like the previous two times, if there is an LBR violation, call it; And that is why there is a coach @ 1B

[CecilOne]

Same as Mike said, plus the dust/non-visibility.
Looks to me like the dust caused "never guess an out".

[CajunNewBlue]

Originally Posted by alblueboy

NFHS
Ball field is extremely dry and dusty. 1st base is open.

1 ball..2 strikes on batter. Next pitch is low and a cloud of dust arises on impact with additional dust as the catcher attempts to catch it.
Batter swings and runs to 1st. No play is attempted and the ball is returned to the pitcher in the circle.

BR thinks she is out and steps off. Coach at 3rd wants a ruling on the D3k. Time is called and PU goes to confer with FU. He states that he didn't see it. After a discussion it is ruled that the ball hit the ground first before the catch.

Question
Should BR be called out for a LBR violation??

by rule.. yes LBR... ball was in the circle and under control. BUT, get ready to dump the coach. ... given the exact play you described....the BR needs to control her actions throughout play.

[EsqUmp]

Umpires placed runner in jeopardy by never making a call. Placed defense in jeopardy as well. Rectify the situation as best as possible.

Track the ball into the glove and this won't be a problem.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by EsqUmp

Umpires placed runner in jeopardy by never making a call.

Do you mean announcing "batter is out", assuming a catch?

[Dakota]

How is the OP situation any different if the umpires did clearly see the D3K?

There would have been no call other than strike 3. BR would have run to 1B. Defense chose to make no play and returns the ball to the pitcher. BR steps off the base.

How does the late recognition that it was a D3K change anything?

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Dakota

How is the OP situation any different if the umpires did clearly see the D3K?

There would have been no call other than strike 3. BR would have run to 1B. Defense chose to make no play and returns the ball to the pitcher. BR steps off the base.

How does the late recognition that it was a D3K change anything?

If caught, LBR. If not caught, apparent jeopardy?

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

If caught, LBR. If not caught, apparent jeopardy?

I'm having a hard time with what the umpires did or did not do that caused anyone jeopardy.

If the pitch was caught, the batter is out.

If the pitch was not caught, the PU calls (or more likely, signals, since it was a swing and miss) strike 3 and nothing more. The BU makes no call at all since there was no play.

What did the umpires do or not do that put anyone in jeopardy? Yes, they made themselves look bad by not knowing whether it was a D3K, but whether they knew it or not had no impact (that I can see) on the actions of either team.

Now, if the PU did the infamous strike 3 call "Steeeerike treee... yuuuur out!", well, now we have jeopardy if they change it later to a D3K.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Dakota

I'm having a hard time with what the umpires did or did not do that caused anyone jeopardy.

If the pitch was caught, the batter is out.

If the pitch was not caught, the PU calls (or more likely, signals, since it was a swing and miss) strike 3 and nothing more. The BU makes no call at all since there was no play.

What did the umpires do or not do that put anyone in jeopardy? Yes, they made themselves look bad by not knowing whether it was a D3K, but whether they knew it or not had no impact (that I can see) on the actions of either team.

Now, if the PU did the infamous strike 3 call "Steeeerike treee... yuuuur out!", well, now we have jeopardy if they change it later to a D3K.

But it took a conference to decide on going with U3K, so the BR was jeopardized by the lack of decision and saying she had the right to 1st after the fact. Sketchy, I know, and there is the "play should know" aspect.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

But it took a conference to decide on going with U3K, so the BR was jeopardized by the lack of decision and saying she had the right to 1st after the fact. Sketchy, I know, and there is the "play should know" aspect.

I just don't see this indecision as placing anyone in jeopardy. The BR stepped off of 1B before the indecision was evident to her. She just thought she was out by strikeout, and if the umpires were both 100% sure it was a D3K they would not have done or said anything different from what they did. (That is, unless something was left out of the OP's description. For example, if PU did declare the runner out, now we have jeopardy and a changed ruling by the umpires.)

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by EsqUmp

Umpires placed runner in jeopardy by never making a call. Placed defense in jeopardy as well. Rectify the situation as best as possible.

I disagree 100%. The only way an umpired placed the runner in jeopardy here is if someone signaled an out. This batter-runner is out regardless of whether the ball was caught or not ... either by strikeout or by LBR.

[EsqUmp]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

I disagree 100%. The only way an umpired placed the runner in jeopardy here is if someone signaled an out. This batter-runner is out regardless of whether the ball was caught or not ... either by strikeout or by LBR.

The umpires completely F-ed up. Don't hold the players to a higher standard than the umpires. Fix the situation. Two wrongs don't equal an out.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by EsqUmp

The umpires completely F-ed up. Don't hold the players to a higher standard than the umpires. Fix the situation. Two wrongs don't equal an out.

Really? The umpires (assuming they didn't say "batter out" or signal that batter out) did not do anything to cause anything that put anyone in jeopardy. Unless they indicated in some manner that the BR was out - there was no reason other than poor coaching or dumb baserunning for her to step off after the ball was back in the pitching circle.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Really? The umpires (assuming they didn't say "batter out" or signal that batter out) did not do anything to cause anything that put anyone in jeopardy. Unless they indicated in some manner that the BR was out - there was no reason other than poor coaching or dumb baserunning for her to step off after the ball was back in the pitching circle.

Agreed. For those that say this was on the umpires, please explain what - exactly - they DID wrong during the play itself.

The blank stares after the coach asked about D3K did not affect the play.

If the PU did definitively declared the batter out, then that would be a changed call, but the OP made no mention of that.

Again, what did they do wrong during the play that affected the play of either team?

I'm waiting....