NFHS Courtesy Runner

[chapmaja]

Yesterday we had a coach who wanted to use the same courtesy runner for both the pitcher and catcher (in different innings). This is still illegal based on what I recall. Is this correct?

I do have a question though based on something I saw earlier this season.

#1 starts as pitcher, #12 is the catcher. #14 courtesy runs for #1 in the first inning. #17 courtesy runs for #12 in the second inning.

In the fifth inning, #1 and #12 switch positions so #1 is catching and #12 is pitching. Are the courtesy runners locked into the position, or the player?

The position switching did occur this season, but not the courtesy runner part. I'm just asking this as a what if.

[RKBUmp]

Nfhs courtesy runners are locked to the position they ran for for the duration of the game (if used as a sub at any time in the game obviously they can no longer be a cr). If the pitcher and catcher switch positions and had courtesy runners, the courtesy runners will now be running for different players but the same position.

[Crabby_Bob]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

Yesterday we had a coach who wanted to use the same courtesy runner for both the pitcher and catcher (in different innings). This is still illegal based on what I recall. Is this correct?
[...]

Yes, it's illegal.

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by RKBUmp

Nfhs courtesy runners are locked to the position they ran for for the duration of the game (if used as a sub at any time in the game obviously they can no longer be a cr). If the pitcher and catcher switch positions and had courtesy runners, the courtesy runners will now be running for different players but the same position.

I could see this potentially being used to a teams advantage.

Let's say there is a close game and in the bottom of the 6th inning pitcher A gets on base and CR-1 runs for her. In the top of the 7th, pitcher A is struggling so they decide to make a pitching change and the catcher and pitcher switch positions (yes a very annoying change in the middle of an inning). Now in the bottom of the inning, Pitcher B, who was the catcher gets on base and CR-1 runs for her. The team could in theory take substantial advantage of this by using the same CR for both positions.

I guess this is why there is a rule that states you can't make a change until that half inning. If there wasn't a rule like that teams could really take advantage of the CR rule. The coach could simply come out and say F1 and F2 are switching positions, then after the half inning switch them back.

I do think NFHS should require position changes to be notified to the umpires at least for the F1 and F2 positions. As I currently understand the rule, it is simply up to the umpire to remember who was last in the position (after the first half inning) for the purposes of the CR rule.

[teebob21]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

I could see this potentially being used to a teams advantage.

Let's say there is a close game and in the bottom of the 6th inning pitcher A gets on base and CR-1 runs for her. In the top of the 7th, pitcher A is struggling so they decide to make a pitching change and the catcher and pitcher switch positions (yes a very annoying change in the middle of an inning). Now in the bottom of the inning, Pitcher B, who was the catcher gets on base and CR-1 runs for her. The team could in theory take substantial advantage of this by using the same CR for both positions.

I guess this is why there is a rule that states you can't make a change until that half inning. If there wasn't a rule like that teams could really take advantage of the CR rule. The coach could simply come out and say F1 and F2 are switching positions, then after the half inning switch them back.

I do think NFHS should require position changes to be notified to the umpires at least for the F1 and F2 positions. As I currently understand the rule, it is simply up to the umpire to remember who was last in the position (after the first half inning) for the purposes of the CR rule.

Don't have a rule book handy right now, but most rulesets with courtesy runners require the CR-1 to run for the player who last played the F1 position (with the exception of the top of the 1st inning). Logically extending that idea, in most rulesets, you can't make a defensive position change while on offense. (See also the Projected Subs thread.)

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by teebob21

Don't have a rule book handy right now, but most rulesets with courtesy runners require the CR-1 to run for the player who last played the F1 position (with the exception of the top of the 1st inning). Logically extending that idea, in most rulesets, you can't make a defensive position change while on offense. (See also the Projected Subs thread.)

I agree with what you said, but in my example, they made the change in the top of the inning, while on defense. (Yes I have seen this change in a game this season, but nothing involving the CR, as they had no subs to use as CR's by that point).

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

I agree with what you said, but in my example, they made the change in the top of the inning, while on defense. (Yes I have seen this change in a game this season, but nothing involving the CR, as they had no subs to use as CR's by that point).

It doesn't make any difference. The only player for which the (pitcher's) CR can run is the last player to throw a pitch in the previous half inning.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by teebob21

Don't have a rule book handy right now, but most rulesets with courtesy runners require the CR-1 to run for the player who last played the F1 position (with the exception of the top of the 1st inning). Logically extending that idea, in most rulesets, you can't make a defensive position change while on offense. (See also the Projected Subs thread.)

Actually, you can, but it has no effect on the CR rule.

[CecilOne]

Quote:
Originally Posted by chapmaja View Post
Yesterday we had a coach who wanted to use the same courtesy runner for both the pitcher and catcher (in different innings). This is still illegal based on what I recall. Is this correct?
[...]

Originally Posted by Crabby_Bob

Yes, it's illegal.

Except in USSSA.

[Crabby_Bob]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Except in USSSA.

Thanks.

[umpjim]

Originally Posted by RKBUmp

Nfhs courtesy runners are locked to the position they ran for for the duration of the game (if used as a sub at any time in the game obviously they can no longer be a cr). If the pitcher and catcher switch positions and had courtesy runners, the courtesy runners will now be running for different players but the same position.

FED CR's are locked to the position. But, usually late in the game, a knowledgeable coach will burn the CR for one position as a pinch runner for the other position if that CR is his fastest runner.

[teebob21]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Actually, you can, but it has no effect on the CR rule.

Ah, you're totally right. I misworded that one badly. What I meant to say was that you can't make a (air-quotes) projected defensive change while on offense to exploit the CR rule, even though the change can be reported.