NFHS Courtesy Runner

no1umpire · #1 (**permalink**) Fri Apr 15, 2005, 09:16pm

Nobody on, 1 out. B4 (the catcher) hits clean single. Offensive coach elects to use a Courtesy Runner for his catcher. The CR (who is not listed on the lineup card given to the home plate umpire) takes the catcher's place on first base. B5 then hits a double, with the CR scoring. The defensive coach appeals to the PU that the CR was an illegal substitute since he was not listed on the line-up card. NO WHERE in the Rule book, or Case book does it declare what an "eligible" substitute is, yet this term is used quite often. Does this warrent an out? Or is it like any unannounced substitute - in which he/she becomes a legal substitute when he takes position in the box/mound/base/defensive position? This is VERY unclear. Any help is much appreciated.

largeone59 · #2 (**permalink**) Fri Apr 15, 2005, 09:51pm

Putting substitutes on a lineup card is just a COURTESY, not a necessity. It is not required by the rulebook to put all substitutes under your starting lineup. This play is all legal.

no1umpire · #3 (**permalink**) Fri Apr 15, 2005, 10:37pm

Check 1-1-2 in the rule book... then read 1-1-2 in the case book and see if you see a discrepancy...

Tim C · #4 (**permalink**) Fri Apr 15, 2005, 10:43pm

Subs on the line up card are a simple courtesey . . .

Nothing else matters.

mrm21711 · #5 (**permalink**) Fri Apr 15, 2005, 11:00pm

Player's number is incorrect, he is 12 when 14 is listed in his spot. An obvious mistake by the coach. There is no number 14 on the team, so this would not be an unreported substitute when he is caught batting. If defense appeals, what happens? Thanks.

no1umpire · #6 (**permalink**) Fri Apr 15, 2005, 11:10pm

The name on the card is all that matters...

Tim C · #7 (**permalink**) Sat Apr 16, 2005, 08:00am

Player numbers are of no value. Only names count,

mikebran · #8 (**permalink**) Sat Apr 16, 2005, 10:55am

To take liberties with a CASEBOOK play re: listing of substitutes:

The Home Varsity team is losing badly in the early innings. Now up to the field pulls the JV team bus, back from their earlier game. The frustrated Home coach has the JV team come into the dugout and at the half inning replaces all his team with members of the JV.

Of course, not one JV player is listed on the lineup card.

And this would be completely legal.

Quote:

Originally posted by largeone59
Putting substitutes on a lineup card is just a COURTESY, not a necessity. It is not required by the rulebook to put all substitutes under your starting lineup.

mrm21711 · #9 (**permalink**) Sat Apr 16, 2005, 03:35pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Tim C
Player numbers are of no value. Only names count,

Had a coach report a number of a substitute and his name. Player ended up hitting home run. Number was wrong, but correct name. Defense appealed, umpire called batter out. The name was correct, however. Absolutely wrong?

bob jenkins · #10 (**permalink**) Sat Apr 16, 2005, 05:00pm

Quote:

Originally posted by mrm21711

Quote:

Originally posted by Tim C
Player numbers are of no value. Only names count,

Had a coach report a number of a substitute and his name. Player ended up hitting home run. Number was wrong, but correct name. Defense appealed, umpire called batter out. The name was correct, however. Absolutely wrong?

Yes. Wrong.

willieg66 · #11 (**permalink**) Sat Apr 16, 2005, 05:01pm

Todays game, CR for catcher is used in 1st inning, the catcher becomes the pitcher in the 5th and gets a basehit in the 6th,the same CR that ran for him as the catcher also runs for him as the pitcher,one pitch is thrown to the next batter and then the opposing team realizes what has happened and appeals that there is an illegal substitution. What is the ruling?

David B · #12 (**permalink**) Sat Apr 16, 2005, 06:30pm

Quote:

Originally posted by willieg66
Todays game, CR for catcher is used in 1st inning, the catcher becomes the pitcher in the 5th and gets a basehit in the 6th,the same CR that ran for him as the catcher also runs for him as the pitcher,one pitch is thrown to the next batter and then the opposing team realizes what has happened and appeals that there is an illegal substitution. What is the ruling?

You are a courtesy runner for the postition of pitcher or cather - not for the player.

So, if CR #A runs for the catcher position and then comes in to run for the pitcher position he becomes an illegal substitute.

But the umpires should be writing down the CR and should be able to keep this from happening.

Illegal subs are ejected and since its an offensive player he is out also.

Thanks
David

cowbyfan1 · #13 (**permalink**) Sun Apr 17, 2005, 05:33am

Here is a situation... Team A sticks an illegal (burned) sub in as a CR. They then realize, before the ball becomes live, the error and replaces him with a legal sub. Defensive team wants an out. Give it to them?

bob jenkins · #14 (**permalink**) Sun Apr 17, 2005, 06:54am

Quote:

Originally posted by cowbyfan1
Here is a situation... Team A sticks an illegal (burned) sub in as a CR. They then realize, before the ball becomes live, the error and replaces him with a legal sub. Defensive team wants an out. Give it to them?

It depends on the timing, imho.

If the "legal sub" was announced by the umpire to the defensive team before the umpire was made aware of the illegal sub, then I think it's too late to penalize. The ILlegal sub is no longer participating, and didn't score, advance or cause a play to be made (so the defensive team doesn't have until teh next pitch to note the infraction).

Also, if the offenisve team noted the infraction before the umpire accepted and announced the change, OR if there was no announcement, then it was too early to penalize.

Daryl H. Long · #15 (**permalink**) Sun Apr 17, 2005, 11:38pm

Quote:

Originally posted by bob jenkins

Quote:

Originally posted by cowbyfan1
Here is a situation... Team A sticks an illegal (burned) sub in as a CR. They then realize, before the ball becomes live, the error and replaces him with a legal sub. Defensive team wants an out. Give it to them?

It depends on the timing, imho.

If the "legal sub" was announced by the umpire to the defensive team before the umpire was made aware of the illegal sub, then I think it's too late to penalize. The ILlegal sub is no longer participating, and didn't score, advance or cause a play to be made (so the defensive team doesn't have until teh next pitch to note the infraction).

Also, if the offenisve team noted the infraction before the umpire accepted and announced the change, OR if there was no announcement, then it was too early to penalize.

For rule reference see 3-1-1 and PENALTY.

If the umpire is doing his job when he looks at his card and notices that substitute requested by the coach would result in an illegal substitution he shall not allow it. No penalty.

If the umpire had shoddy record keeping and he announces the substitute as if it is legal, and then it is discovered before the ball is declared live by umpire, then there still is no penalty and the substitution shall be prevented. It makes no difference if the discovery is by defense or offense, or if one of the umpires just happens to remember.

Once the ball is declared alive and THEN discovery of illegal player is made, then the umpire, in the case cited above, shall declre the CR/illegal sub out and he shall be restricted to the dugout for the remainder of the game. No pitch has to be made.

Once pitches are made the only way to negate any advance by any runner including the CR/Illegal sub then it must be made before another pitch is thrown. CR/Illegal sub still declared out but you may only negate the advance made other runners that happened during the immediate previous pitch only. Advances during pitches prior to that are legal.

If discovery is made after the CR/Illegal sub has scored AND a pitch has been made to the next batter (either team), the CR/Illegal sub is NOT declared out, his run scores, but he is removed from the game and restricted to the dugout.