Foul tip

[jmkupka]

Pitched ball goes sharply and directly from bat to F2's mitt, where it skips off the top of the mitt, hits F2's shoulder, goes up in the air, comes down in her mitt. Ball never touches anything but F2's person.

Live ball?

I ask because the rule book example has the ball go from bat to mitt, up in the air, then caught for a foul tip (never touching any other part of F2's person or equipment)

[Umpteenth]

Originally Posted by jmkupka

Pitched ball goes sharply and directly from bat to F2's mitt, where it skips off the top of the mitt, hits F2's shoulder, goes up in the air, comes down in her mitt. Ball never touches anything but F2's person.

Live ball?

I ask because the rule book example has the ball go from bat to mitt, up in the air, then caught for a foul tip (never touching any other part of F2's person or equipment)

ASA - Foul tip is a batted ball that goes sharply and directly from the bat to the catcher's glove / mitt or hand and is legally caught by the catcher.

What you describe is a foul ball, as the ball deflected off the mitt to the shoulder up in the air, etc.

[BretMan]

What you describe is a foul tip (ie: live ball, strike to the batter).

[BretMan]

Wow. Two responses with two totally opposite answers!

[Umpteenth]

If the ball deflected off the catcher's mitt to her shoulder, etc., why would that still be considered a foul tip? IMJ, even though the ball was then caught before touching the ground, I have a foul ball due to the deflection, based on definition.

[BretMan]

Originally Posted by Umpteenth

If the ball deflected off the catcher's mitt to her shoulder, etc., why would that still be considered a foul tip? IMJ, even though the ball was then caught before touching the ground, I have a foul ball due to the deflection, based on definition.

You have a foul ball...and I have two case plays (ASA & NFHS) that say otherwise!

By going directly from the bat to the mitt, this play meets the first part of the foul tip definition. The next part is "the catch". This catch would need to meet the same definition as a catch made on a batted ball- that is, it can touch nothing but a defensive player, it can't be made with detached equipment, the ball must become securely held, etc, etc, etc.

Of course a batted ball can be caught after it bounces off the body of a defender. The catch in the example meets the definition of a catch, and that satisfies the second part of the foul tip definition. So you have a foul tip.

[Umpteenth]

Originally Posted by BretMan

You have a foul ball...and I have two case plays (ASA & NFHS) that say otherwise!

By going directly from the bat to the mitt, this play meets the first part of the foul tip definition. The next part is "the catch". This catch would need to meet the same definition as a catch made on a batted ball- that is, it can touch nothing but a defensive player, it can't be made with detached equipment, the ball must become securely held, etc, etc, etc.

Of course a batted ball can be caught after it bounces off the body of a defender. The catch in the example meets the definition of a catch, and that satisfies the second part of the foul tip definition. So you have a foul tip.

Ah, I see. I'm good with that, appreciate the explanation.

[Andy]

The key here is that the ball went sharply and directly from the bat to the catcher's glove or hand first.

Had the ball went sharply and directly from the bat to any other part of the catcher's body or equipment that is a foul ball and a dead ball, by rule.

NFHS: 5-1-1d2
ASA: 1-Foul Ball and RS 22

[BretMan]

(NFHS Case Book. This is a long passage, but the red highlighted item applies)

2.25 COMMENT:

COMMENT: Determining when a ball becomes dead on a foul is sometimes tricky. With R1 on second and no one out, consider the following: (1) An attempted bunt on a third strike by B2 is a foul fly that is caught by F2. B2 would have been out without the catch, but because of the catch, the pitcher is not credited with a strikeout and R1 may attempt to advance after the catch. (2) The first strike on B2 is a foul fly that comes down near the wall with F2 attempting a catch. A spectator reaches into the field of play and deflects it and (a) prevents the catch, or (b) F2 makes the catch. In (a) and (b), the ball shall be dead at the moment of spectator interference. B2 is declared out and R1 will be awarded the bases the runner would have reached in the judgment of the umpire had there been no spectator interference (8-2-12). (3) B2 hits a high foul fly to right field which is not caught. R1, who was on second, has passed third before the ball becomes dead. The runner must return to second. (4) A pitch touches the bat of B2. In (a), it goes directly to the catcher's glove then caroms against her protector and rebounds into her hand or glove; or (b) it goes directly to catcher's protector or mask and rebounds into her hand or glove. In (a), it is a foul tip and a catch. The ball remains live. In (b), the ball becomes dead when it touches the body of F2. (5) A pitch touches the bat of B2 and loops over the catcher's head (never higher than the batter's head). F2 lunges backward and makes a diving catch. B2 is out and the ball remains live.


The ASA case book has this same ruling. But the PDF I have is copy-protected, so I can't cut and paste...and I'm not typing out all of that! The case play in my several years old case book is 1-59.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Again, as with the IF rule; has always been true, in every sanction I know about.

[teebob21]

Originally Posted by Andy

The key here is that the ball went sharply and directly from the bat to the catcher's glove or hand first.

As Andy points out, this is the criteria for foul tip eligibility. After this happens, there are only two outcomes: a catch of any flavor (live ball strike), or a drop (dead ball/foul ball).

[EsqUmp]

Originally Posted by teebob21

As Andy points out, this is the criteria for foul tip eligibility. After this happens, there are only two outcomes: a catch of any flavor (live ball strike), or a drop (dead ball/foul ball).

Well, not quite. There are more options, which have been neglected. Since a foul tip must be caught by the catcher, if the ball went sharply an directly from the bat, to the catcher's glove, then hit her in the shin and ricocheted up in the air and was caught by someone other than the catcher, this is a dead ball foul.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by EsqUmp

Well, not quite. There are more options, which have been neglected. Since a foul tip must be caught by the catcher, if the ball went sharply an directly from the bat, to the catcher's glove, then hit her in the shin and ricocheted up in the air and was caught by someone other than the catcher, this is a dead ball foul.

Yep. Never understood why that is, but it is.