Legal pitch?

[DeputyUICHousto]

Originally Posted by jmkupka

http://www.cactusumpires.com/pitchers.html

Please take a look at Pitcher #3 (lefty), in particular in the 3rd frame.
Since this is intended as a tutorial for umpires, please tell me this is incorrectly being described as legal.

She obviously replants and goes past her hip twice...illegal!

[RKBUmp]

There is nothing in the rules about going past the hip twice.

[jmkupka]

Hopefully we're all looking at the same pitcher (red top/white sleeves, black shorts)

Pitcher is starting with pivot foot's heel touching the front of the PP. As the back foot goes forward past the pivot foot, PF goes up on it's ball, breaking contact from that point on. This is during the backswing motion. Caption "All okay."

The caption in picture 4 is "Still doing fine. That heel off the rubber is okay - toe did not go forward, foot just bent."

If that's legal, fine, let me know. But from that point on, she's at least 5-6 inches in front of the PP, and way before any pushoff and slide.

(Draw a straight line down from the gatepost; that's what I'm seeing as the PP.)

[RKBUmp]

Originally Posted by jmkupka

Hopefully we're all looking at the same pitcher (red top/white sleeves, black shorts)

Pitcher is starting with pivot foot's heel touching the front of the PP. As the back foot goes forward past the pivot foot, PF goes up on it's ball, breaking contact from that point on. This is during the backswing motion. Caption "All okay."

The caption in picture 4 is "Still doing fine. That heel off the rubber is okay - toe did not go forward, foot just bent."

If that's legal, fine, let me know. But from that point on, she's at least 5-6 inches in front of the PP, and way before any pushoff and slide.

(Draw a straight line down from the gatepost; that's what I'm seeing as the PP.)

ASA is legal to only be touching the pitching plate with the pivot foot at the start of the pitching motion. NFHS and NCAA as well as I believe USSSA require at least a portion of the pivot foot to be on top of the pitching plate.

[jmkupka]

Thanks Steve, understood. But once she goes up on the ball of her pivot foot (the ball of the foot being 6ish inches in front of the PP), is she is not now "Pushing off with the pivot foot from a place other than the pitcher's plate"(ASA 6.3.J).

And, this is not a difficult thing to see in real time. She is off the PP for most of her action.


BTW, I was still typing when you replied...

[AtlUmpSteve]

6.3-I says she can slide or turn the pivot foot as long as it maintains contact (part two of NCAA rule difference above). But, she hasn't turned nor slid (slided?) the foot, it's in the same place.

And that's why I reject 6.3-J for this slide. She's still in the same place, albeit not maintaining contact. This part of the rule doesn't specify maintaining contact, just not pushing from another "place".

Let's be honest. The NCAA rule incorporates an interpretation of actions that they judge don't gain an advantage. I'm not looking to nitpick something that isn't clearly stated to be illegal (when it easily could be, like stated in maintaining contact when sliding or turning the foot) when there is no apparent advantage, AND it's clearly stated to be legal in another major (read the big three, NCAA/ASA/NFHS) ruleset.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

6.3-I says she can slide or turn the pivot foot as long as it maintains contact (part two of NCAA rule difference above). But, she hasn't turned nor slid (slided?) the foot, it's in the same place.

And that's why I reject 6.3-J for this slide. She's still in the same place, albeit not maintaining contact. This part of the rule doesn't specify maintaining contact, just not pushing from another "place".

Let's be honest. The NCAA rule incorporates an interpretation of actions that they judge don't gain an advantage. I'm not looking to nitpick something that isn't clearly stated to be illegal (when it easily could be, like stated in maintaining contact when sliding or turning the foot) when there is no apparent advantage, AND it's clearly stated to be legal in another major (read the big three, NCAA/ASA/NFHS) ruleset.

Since when does something have to be specifically stated as illegal for it to be illegal?

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by jmkupka

Hopefully we're all looking at the same pitcher (red top/white sleeves, black shorts)

Pitcher is starting with pivot foot's heel touching the front of the PP. As the back foot goes forward past the pivot foot, PF goes up on it's ball, breaking contact from that point on. This is during the backswing motion. Caption "All okay."

The caption in picture 4 is "Still doing fine. That heel off the rubber is okay - toe did not go forward, foot just bent."

If that's legal, fine, let me know. But from that point on, she's at least 5-6 inches in front of the PP, and way before any pushoff and slide.

(Draw a straight line down from the gatepost; that's what I'm seeing as the PP.)

This is an NCAA training item (these are college pitchers); and the NCAA rule is clear that this action is legal, as the caption says. The pivot foot can slide, even forward, as long as any part of the foot remains over the plane of the plate; and/or the the pivot foot can arch, turn, or bend, even off the plane of the plate, if the front of the foot (toe) doesn't advance closer to the batter. In this slide set, the front of the foot was 5-6 inches in front of the PP when her heel was flat on the ground and PP at the beginning; it was still at that spot when you saw the heel up on slide #3.

Not written so clearly in ASA or NFHS, but I accept the same first half of that (foot still over the plane) as not illegal, but not the second half (foot not even over the plane, but it hasn't advanced). That said, the foot needs to be clearly off and not over, not just in the vicinity of off, for me to make that call.