Walking steal.

[pollywolly60]

My problem with the original posting is that R2 continues strolling slowly after the pitcher is ready to pitch. If she were trying to draw a throw, she has obviously failed. Not getting into position as the PU would work for a moment, but if the pitcher has committed NOT to throw, and the runner wants to move at a snail's pace, what then? Seems to me the rule is not being enforced if I do nothing but allow this foolishness. I have only seen anything similar to this in 9/10 softball when I have had two unevenly matched teams, and the more dominant team continues to run bases non-stop after the pitcher has the ball in circle simply because the pitcher doesn't have a clue as to what to do. Even then, the runners are RUNNING, not strolling slowly. True, base runners are allowed to play the game, and umpires are allowed to enforce the rules of the game.
Also, as I interpret POE #33 in ASA, under section B, a runner strolling slowly is not immediately proceeding, are they? Can you honestly say that strolling slowly and immediately proceeding are one and the same?

[Edited by pollywolly60 on Sep 2nd, 2003 at 10:16 AM]

[CecilOne]

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA

Speaking ASA

Only if the umpire is not doing their job, or the pitcher, catcher and batter are not paying attention.

That was implied by the "sitch" happening, fictitious or not.

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA
The umpire should be out from behind the catcher toward 3B, mask in left hand watching the runner advance to 3B. As the PU is moving to that position, s/he may want to quietly state, "step out, batter" in an even further effort to prevent a possible problem. If none of this grabs the girls' attention and the pitcher begins the delivery with a batter in the box, then I would rule "no pitch" and place the runner on the closest base.

I agree with the positioning, but no hints to either team.

[Dakota]

Originally posted by pollywolly60
My problem with the original posting is that R2 continues strolling slowly after the pitcher is ready to pitch.

The pitcher being ready to pitch has no bearing on the base runners continuing to advance. IOW, the pitcher cannot end the play merely by ignoring it.

Not getting into position as the PU would work for a moment,

It will work for as long as the active base running continues.

but if the pitcher has committed NOT to throw, and the runner wants to move at a snail's pace, what then? Seems to me the rule is not being enforced if I do nothing but allow this foolishness.

What rule? As long as the base runner is moving (no stop, no change of direction), the lookback rule does not come into effect.

I have only seen anything similar to this in 9/10 softball when I have had two unevenly matched teams,

That's because good defenses can deal with this and it won't happen very often. However, that says nothing about the legality of it. I don't know why you want to put yourself in the middle of the play. Is it just because it offends you?

Also, as I interpret POE #33 in ASA, under section B, a runner strolling slowly is not immediately proceeding, are they? Can you honestly say that strolling slowly and immediately proceeding are one and the same?

No, I don't. One refers to making an immediate decision to proceed. The other referes to continuing to move. What do you do with the 1st sentence, 3rd paragraph on p 151 of the same POE? "If a runner is moving toward a base, other than first base, when the pitcher receives the ball in the circle, that runner must continue toward that base or be called out." Hmmm... moving... continue.

Finally, you keep, inappropriately, trying to apply the lookback rule to the situation presented. It is not a lookback situation, since the runner continued to move.

The rule that was suggest that applies is ASA 8-7S (not T). 8-7S is not the proper rule to apply here, for the reasons already stated. If more clarity is needed, there are two rules under 8-8, THE RUNNER IS NOT OUT, and apply.

One (8-8J), is identical to the NFHS rule 8-8-10 already cited. The other is 8-8K, "THE RUNNER IS NOT OUT. When the runner has legally started to advance. The runner may not be stopped by the pitcher receiving the ball while on the pitching plate, or by the pitcher stepping on the plate with the ball in his possession.:"

Summarizing: unless the runner stops (and since I'm not measuring her progress with a laser range finder, appearing to stop is the same as stopping), she is not in violation of lookback. "Immediately" in 8-7T (and the POE) applies to the decision, not to the speed of movement once the decision is made.

The umpire's focus in this situation should be on the base runner, and on preventing the pitcher from attempting a pitch while active baserunning is still ongoing. Under no circumstances is the baserunner OUT, including if the pitcher does pitch. If the pitcher does pitch, then it is just a throw to the catcher unless the batter does something that requires the umpire to treat it like a pitch (i.e hit the ball). In that case, apply 6-10D to declare a no pitch and place the runners as appropriate.

The umpire should not dictate the style of play so long as the rules of the game are not begin violated. Just because an attempt to draw a throw didn't work doesn't mean that the umpire should inject himself into how the play concludes.

[CecilOne]

I'm often glad that Tom types better and faster than I do.

I'm not sure about "preventing the pitcher from attempting a pitch", but the rest is right on. My concern is not giving hints or tips about what is going on and if the runner is deliberately sneaking to 3rd, stopping the pitcher probably would draw attention to the runner.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by CecilOne
I'm often glad that Tom types better and faster than I do.

I'm not sure about "preventing the pitcher from attempting a pitch", but the rest is right on. My concern is not giving hints or tips about what is going on and if the runner is deliberately sneaking to 3rd, stopping the pitcher probably would draw attention to the runner.

Watching an active runner advance and being in the prescribed position when doing so is not offering a team a hint.

Telling the batter to "step out" is a preventive measure which gives no one any indication of what is happening. As I noted, you are stating it quietly which the batter (who has no bearing on a possible play at this point in time) and, maybe, the catcher is going to hear you. I don't believe that statement will draw the catcher to the play toward 3B. If anything, it may draw her attention away from the play.

If you have to literally "stop" the pitcher (batter in the box), then it should be ruled a "no pitch".

[Del-Blue]

Why would you as an umpire even be behind the catcher while a player is running(walking)(skipping)around the bases?????? Don't you have a position to be in with players moving between bases.

That said, If you do find yourself behind the catcher, haven't you not been ready to play before. I have. I just tell the batter and catcher I'm not ready yet. "Hang on a sec batter, I'm not ready yet" usually does the trick.

[pollywolly60]

It was stated earlier that on a no-pitch in ASA the runner gets closest base and in NFHS the runner returns. What is that ASA rule (or where is it?)

[Dakota]

Originally posted by Del-Blue
Why would you as an umpire even be behind the catcher while a player is running(walking)(skipping)around the bases?????? Don't you have a position to be in with players moving between bases.

That said, If you do find yourself behind the catcher, haven't you not been ready to play before. I have. I just tell the batter and catcher I'm not ready yet. "Hang on a sec batter, I'm not ready yet" usually does the trick.

Well said.

As Mike said, above, if you have to actually stop the pitcher (hold up your hand, whatever), then you've backed into "no pitch" or the functional equivalent. I was trying to walk that line in my response, above. IOW, when I said "preventing the pitcher..." I meant by means of my positioning, etc., not by holding up the "stop sign" - which effectively kills the play. I can see how what I wrote could be read to mean actively stopping the pitcher.

[Elaine "Lady Blue"]

Wow, thanks Tom (Dakota), I'm glad you typed out everything I was thinking.

Tom is correct guys and gals.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by pollywolly60
It was stated earlier that on a no-pitch in ASA the runner gets closest base and in NFHS the runner returns. What is that ASA rule (or where is it?)

Well, here is part of my post.

If the umpire is in position, and the BU notices and call "no pitch", I would follow ASA's guideline set forth in their obstruction ruling that when the ball is killed due to a defensive violation, the runner is placed based upon the base to which they are the closest at the time of the call.

Go to ASA POE #35, page 153, third paragraph from the top of the page.

[SamNVa]

Suppose you're working a one-man system when this situation comes up. Do you sort of stroll down toward 3rd matching the runner's pace thereby eventually tipping the defense on to what's going on; or do you sort of hang around the plate area, then try to sprint into the best position you can get once the pitcher finally wakes up and makes a last minute throw to 3rd, knowing full well that you are probably going to be moving on the tag; or do you hang around the plate and try to make the call from a steady position 55 feet away?

SamC

[Skahtboi]

Originally posted by SamNVa
Suppose you're working a one-man system when this situation comes up. Do you sort of stroll down toward 3rd matching the runner's pace thereby eventually tipping the defense on to what's going on; or do you sort of hang around the plate area, then try to sprint into the best position you can get once the pitcher finally wakes up and makes a last minute throw to 3rd, knowing full well that you are probably going to be moving on the tag; or do you hang around the plate and try to make the call from a steady position 55 feet away?

SamC

My belief would be that you would walk down to about midway between home and third, which is where you should be in this situation in one man mechanics. I don't feel this would tip the defense off (if they aren't tipped off by a walking runner already), and this is also what is expected of you. Furthermore, being stationed in this position would also help to keep the pitcher from pitching, as has been hashed over completely in this thread.

[JEL]

Well, this has been interesting, but in real games, what is the chance of this occurring? If it does occur, (as has alredy been stated) youve got either a dumb, asleep, or blind catcher, pitcher, base coach, umpire etc. If the runner is attempting to make third, and pitcher ignores her, I believe even my fat old self could finish the run before the next pitch is delivered. If the runner is trying to become an out, oblige her, call her out and move on.

[Dukat]

Originally posted by JEL
Well, this has been interesting, but in real games, what is the chance of this occurring

Whenever a 10U coach reads this post and decides to try it sometime is when it will happen.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by JEL
Well, this has been interesting, but in real games, what is the chance of this occurring? If it does occur, (as has alredy been stated) youve got either a dumb, asleep, or blind catcher, pitcher, base coach, umpire etc. If the runner is attempting to make third, and pitcher ignores her, I believe even my fat old self could finish the run before the next pitch is delivered. If the runner is trying to become an out, oblige her, call her out and move on.

This doesn't reflect on the look-back rule, but it does on the issue of the umpire being aware of and in position to make a call and to not prematurely or unnecessarily kill a play.

Actually, a similar play happens ROUTINELY in the SP game. I don't know how many times I do not call time because a runner is slowly moving in the direction of the next base. Of course, most AAs are too dumb to understand the logic, unless they are on the offensive side of the field in this case.

The defense goes crazy when I do not immediately call time at their request, but I'm not suppose to call time as long as the play is not over. And as long as that runner is advancing at any pace, the play is not yet over. I'm not talking about a runner just standing off the base, I'm refering to a runner who is moving.