snookered on infield fly

[KentuckyBlue]

Will complete my 11th season this fall calling AA adult slow pitch (NSA this year after 10 years ASA). Had a quiet year EXCEPT that I had about four consecutive foul-ups on infield flies and the office now thinks I don't know jack about them. Maddening. I know the rules perfectly but the situations throw me curves. Here's the most recent one I punted.

I'm PU in this game of a summer class D tournament, being played as usual by trophy-hunting B and C teams almost exclusively. R1 on first, R2 on second, nobody out. Batter lifts a towering infield fly that from my point of view looks easily playable by F6. In fact he's camped, tapping his glove. At the fly ball's apex I call "Infield fly, batt---" and F6 suddenly turns and scampers to where the ball is actually falling, more like short center field about 25 feet behind second base. He plays it on the bounce and comes up firing to third for the force on R2, whom I saw reverse his path and hold second after hearing my call. Uh oh.

Have no idea how to make this right. Partner and I confer. We decide to resurrect R2 to third. Howls then from the defense, who wants me to explain why neither the infield fly call nor the out at third stands. I say it's false logic that it should be an either/or, but they say if the fly fell and wasn't an IF then the runner should have been in jeopardy. My "correcting a mistaken call" explanation doesn't convince. Defense protests but wins the game.

Not my finest hour, as I'm sure Mike and all y'all will tell me. (I've eaten lots of crow here before, pile on, I'm not offended.) But I just want to know what a blue with all his/her brains might have done to try to fix that screwup (and where I can find one next time I need it and don't happen to have my laptop hooked up to this board).

[oppool]

Here are my thoughts, BIG dogs will come in later and clean up.

If I announced the IF on this play I am going to stick with it. Batter is out and runners can advance at their own risk if R2 made it to 3rd without a tag then he would be safe


JMO

Don

[TexBlue]

I believe in the ASA Case book it states that you can correct an IF error after the fact. Not sure about NSA.

Usually, I talk to my partner before the game. If I'm not sure, I'll ask him to give me the "safe sign" (usually down around the hips so no one knows about it but me)so I'll know to not call it or just call the IF. As we all know, it's hard to tell sometimes, especially if a wind is wreaking havoc with the flight of the ball.

[SC Ump]

Originally posted by KentuckyBlue
... He plays it on the bounce and comes up firing to third for the force on R2...

1. If it is an infield fly, it is not a force at third.

2. If a fielder is camped out underneath the ball, tapping his glove and then at some point "scampers" to some other spot and catches the ball on the first bounce, my opinion is that was an fly that could have been caught by an infielder under ordinary effort (if he had not have been show boating.) Your job is to protect the offense from a cheap double play.

3. I have not certified for ASA in a large number of years. They used to insist that this was always the plate umpire's call. I disagree and think the BU has a better read on what is or is not an infield fly. In my pregame with my partners, one standard item is to make sure they know to call it if they see it, even as BU. If I'm on the plate, I always delay until I'm absolutely sure and then make the call firmly and stick with it.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by KentuckyBlue
Will complete my 11th season this fall calling AA adult slow pitch (NSA this year after 10 years ASA). Had a quiet year EXCEPT that I had about four consecutive foul-ups on infield flies and the office now thinks I don't know jack about them. Maddening. I know the rules perfectly but the situations throw me curves. Here's the most recent one I punted.

I'm PU in this game of a summer class D tournament, being played as usual by trophy-hunting B and C teams almost exclusively. R1 on first, R2 on second, nobody out. Batter lifts a towering infield fly that from my point of view looks easily playable by F6. In fact he's camped, tapping his glove. At the fly ball's apex I call "Infield fly, batt---" and F6 suddenly turns and scampers to where the ball is actually falling, more like short center field about 25 feet behind second base. He plays it on the bounce and comes up firing to third for the force on R2, whom I saw reverse his path and hold second after hearing my call. Uh oh.

Have no idea how to make this right. Partner and I confer. We decide to resurrect R2 to third. Howls then from the defense, who wants me to explain why neither the infield fly call nor the out at third stands. I say it's false logic that it should be an either/or, but they say if the fly fell and wasn't an IF then the runner should have been in jeopardy. My "correcting a mistaken call" explanation doesn't convince. Defense protests but wins the game.

Not my finest hour, as I'm sure Mike and all y'all will tell me. (I've eaten lots of crow here before, pile on, I'm not offended.) But I just want to know what a blue with all his/her brains might have done to try to fix that screwup (and where I can find one next time I need it and don't happen to have my laptop hooked up to this board).

I hate to say this, but I agree with the players.

The fact that you ruled infield fly should have nothing to do with the runner's position at 2B as all rules still apply concerning tagging up on a fly ball. For that matter, that runner probably had the best angle on the batted ball than anyone else and should have been aware of whether he would need to tag up or not.

If you don't rule the batter out on the IF, then you did indeed put the runner at 2B in jeopardy of being forced. If you do rule the batter out on the IF, then there was no jeopardy of the runner being forced at 3B.

Based on your description, my ruling would be the batter is out (and I would learn to be more patient with my call) and place R1 (who should have started on 2b with R2 on 1B) on whichever base I thought he would have been if the play followed through with no IF called. In this case, most like 2B.

BTW, in my area, when there is a BU we teach them to give an indication to the PU (left hand pointing up) and then to make the call if the PU fails to rule IF.

[CecilOne]

Originally posted by SC Ump
2. If a fielder is camped out underneath the ball, tapping his glove and then at some point "scampers" to some other spot and catches the ball on the first bounce, my opinion is that was an fly that could have been caught by an infielder under ordinary effort (if he had not have been show boating.) Your job is to protect the offense from a cheap double play.

Yes, yes, yes! If a fielder is camped out underneath the ball, tapping his glove and then at some point "scampers" to some other spot and catches the ball on the first bounce, my opinion is that was an fly that could have been caught by an infielder under ordinary effort (if he had not have been show boating.) Your job is to protect the offense from a cheap double play.

Mike,
Isn't the standard IF signal for the BU right fist raised high like the old beginning of the hammer?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by CecilOne


Mike,
Isn't the standard IF signal for the BU right fist raised high like the old beginning of the hammer?

Yes, for the umpire making the call. As the PU is responsible for the batted ball, I prefer he make the call when possible.

The reason I prefer the BU to use the left hand for an indication is to avoid the players arguing conflicting calls should there be a difference of opinion. I have seen BUs indicate IF on a ball near the 3B foul line from the A position based solely on the depth of the ball. Meanwhile, the PU does not call it because he saw F5 having difficulty locating and back-peddling to get to where she needed to catch the ball in a manner other than simple ordinary effort.

[DownTownTonyBrown]

Infield Fly does not need to be caught. PERIOD.

In the right situation (runners on 1st & 2nd, less than 2 outs) a fly ball hit with appreciable height that will land in fair territory at a location that an infielder can get to with ordinary effort... SHOULD ALWAYS BE CALLED AN INFIELD FLY and the batter is then declared out. The only time this call should change (after you have called it) is if the ball lands in FOUL territory.

There is nothing in this rule about wind, rain, or sunshine... unless YOU make some kind of a determination that "ordinary effort" includes these variables of nature. (There may be those that will disagree with this statement but in the end it is you on the field that will have to make the call and live with it. This would be another and likely heated discussion.)

I learned early in my career to stick by my call. If I call "TIME," then everything must stop - even if my call was incorrect. Make appologies and move on. If you called "Infield Fly, the batter is OUT," then you've got to stick by that call. PERIOD. Your call influences the playing action. Perhaps it was because of your call that F6 let the ball drop - F6 says I've already got one out, let's see if I can confuse someone and get another.

In your case the batter should have been out and the runner from 2nd can advance if they want, but should only be called out if tagged.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by DownTownTonyBrown
Infield Fly does not need to be caught. PERIOD.

Since you cited no post, I assume you are addressing KyBlue.

[Dakota]

Originally posted by DownTownTonyBrown
If you called "Infield Fly, the batter is OUT," then you've got to stick by that call. PERIOD.

I agree in this situation, it would have been better (IMO) to stick with the IF call, since the only issue was a judgment of ordinary effort.

However, I disagree with this part of your post that I extracted above if you mean this as an absolute. Did you mean this as an absolute?

[TruBlu]

I say stick with the call. If you called IFR, and got no help from your BU, stand with your best judgement. You did the best job you could given the situation. The only thing that can be worse is trying to make up for it afterwards. It's easy for all of us to sit back after games and see what could have been different.

[CecilOne]

Originally posted by Dakota
... snip ... I disagree with this part of your post that I extracted above if you mean this as an absolute. ... snip ...

When would you change the call?

[DownTownTonyBrown]

Originally posted by Dakota

I agree in this situation, it would have been better (IMO) to stick with the IF call, since the only issue was a judgment of ordinary effort.

However, I disagree with this part of your post that I extracted above if you mean this as an absolute. Did you mean this as an absolute?

ABSOLUTELY (of course there is the "Never say never approach and there will always be exceptions, but I am completely serious when I say an umpire must stick with his call - make the right call to begin with and then stick with it and it's consequences.)

The calls an umpire makes on the field affects the actions of the players. It would be totally improper to affect their actions and then say.... "Well, I'm gonna change my mind. - That wasn't really an infield fly... or that ball really was fair - I guess we need to keep playing." The reason is obvious. You can't go back and change their actions that were made based upon your call.

The importance of the calls you make cannot be underestimated. This obviously means that you should treat the judgement that goes into making those calls very importantly also - make the right call. And after it is made you've got to stick with it.

[Dakota]

Well, perhaps it was a bit of a trick question, since I agree if the call was based on judgment of "ordinary effort" you live with it even if you immediately wish you had not made that particular judgment.

However, R1 on 1st. 1 out. B2 hits an infield fly ball. You call INFIELD FLY - BATTER OUT. Well, no it isn't, and no he isn't. You have to apply 10-6C and do your best to repair the damage.

[DownTownTonyBrown]

Wrong call. Swallow your pride and punt - oops wrong sport.