Dropped third strike question

[chapmaja]

OK, had this one today. Coach wasn't happy with my ruling. Was I correct or not? Fed rules.

2 out, none on base. Uncaught 3rd strike on B3. B3 starts walking toward the first base dugout (enterence is about even with 1st base). She never enteres dead ball terriroty. The catcher rolls the ball to the pitching circle as the defense heads towards their dugout. I called the third stirke, and went in line with first base and watched for somthing else to happen (either she entered DBT or the defense makes a play). Finally, B3 realizes the situation and goes to first base. By the time she arrives at first base, the defense has huddled in live ball territory outside the dugout. I call B3 safe, which does not make the coach happy. She starts coming over to argue as B3 starts going from first to second, then on to third base. The DC realizes this and the players run onto the field, grab the ball and almost get B3 at third.

The closest thing I can find to this is the casebook play on page 50 Situation 8-1-1. There are three instances where B3 could be called out on a D3K situation. First, she enters DBT, which did not happen. Second, she does not reach first base by the next pitch (again not applicable). third, the infields have all left the diamond before she B3 reachers third base. This is the one I am questioning. I can not find anywhere in the rulebook a specification for leaving the diamond. Does this mean leaving live ball terrritory (in which case the call was incorrect and she should have been out), or does it mean leaving the dirt area of the diamond.

P.S. Due to several injured umpires, I was working a JV game 1 man today.

[UmpireErnie]

Sorry you had to go JV solo, I was in the same boat today for a JV triple-header. Did the first one one-man then got a slow pitch umpire to help with other two but meant I did all three behind the plate. At least it was a beautiful evening!

I agree with your call, the ball was alive and in play. I guess plays like this might be why NCAA now has the mechanic for PU to give a safe signal following strike three when the batter is not out.

I have no idea what the NFHS casebook play 8.1.1 Situation A Ruling (3) means where it says "..B3 should be declared out if...the half-inning ends because all infielders left the diamond." Huh? That makes no sense. So if the defense just runes off the field quickly on U3K the batter-runner is out? Hogwash, methinks.

The casebook gives a rule book reference of 8-2-4 which to paraphrase says the batter-runner is out when she fails to advance to first base and enters the team area. There is no mention of the defense leaving the field.

I guess there has to be a limit to when the batter-runner can still try to advance to first in a U3K scenario otherwise you could have a batter-runner fail to try for 1B (not realizing that the third strike was uncaught) and believing it to be the third out run out to her defensive position and wait for teammates (who also don't realize it's an U3K) to join her and bring her glove. The would be first batter for the other team (who also don't realize it's an U3K and all ran off the field) could be walking up to bat when this batter-runner who has never entered the team area suddenly gets it and runs over to 1B.

Sure it's a fantasy play but it begs the question as to when exactly does the batter-runner who has not entered the team area lose the right to try to advance to 1B. Perhaps NFHS editors made a poorly worded attempt to define this in a casebook play. I can't find anything in the actual NFHS or ASA rules that speaks to this.

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by UmpireErnie

Sorry you had to go JV solo, I was in the same boat today for a JV triple-header. Did the first one one-man then got a slow pitch umpire to help with other two but meant I did all three behind the plate. At least it was a beautiful evening!

I agree with your call, the ball was alive and in play. I guess plays like this might be why NCAA now has the mechanic for PU to give a safe signal following strike three when the batter is not out.

I have no idea what the NFHS casebook play 8.1.1 Situation A Ruling (3) means where it says "..B3 should be declared out if...the half-inning ends because all infielders left the diamond." Huh? That makes no sense. So if the defense just runes off the field quickly on U3K the batter-runner is out? Hogwash, methinks.

The casebook gives a rule book reference of 8-2-4 which to paraphrase says the batter-runner is out when she fails to advance to first base and enters the team area. There is no mention of the defense leaving the field.

I guess there has to be a limit to when the batter-runner can still try to advance to first in a U3K scenario otherwise you could have a batter-runner fail to try for 1B (not realizing that the third strike was uncaught) and believing it to be the third out run out to her defensive position and wait for teammates (who also don't realize it's an U3K) to join her and bring her glove. The would be first batter for the other team (who also don't realize it's an U3K and all ran off the field) could be walking up to bat when this batter-runner who has never entered the team area suddenly gets it and runs over to 1B.

Sure it's a fantasy play but it begs the question as to when exactly does the batter-runner who has not entered the team area lose the right to try to advance to 1B. Perhaps NFHS editors made a poorly worded attempt to define this in a casebook play. I can't find anything in the actual NFHS or ASA rules that speaks to this.

My opinion. Part (3) of the casebook ruling has to be defined as the actual dirt portion of liveball territory. The reason. If you define the diamond as only fair ball territory this could happen. D3K, the defense realizes the ball is by the catcher, so all the infielders sprint outside the foul lines on the field, as does the pitcher. Instead of going to get the ball, the catcher heads toward the dugout. If all the infielders cross the foul lines before the batter-runner reaches first base, under (3) we should call the batter runner out, even if she makes an immediate attempt to get to first.


My opinion, the ruling has to be that the defensive players leave the life ball territory. This would set some limit on the time a player has to advance to first base, while at the same time not allowing the defense to abuse the rule to their advantage.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

My opinion. Part (3) of the casebook ruling has to be defined as the actual dirt portion of liveball territory. The reason. If you define the diamond as only fair ball territory this could happen. D3K, the defense realizes the ball is by the catcher, so all the infielders sprint outside the foul lines on the field, as does the pitcher. Instead of going to get the ball, the catcher heads toward the dugout. If all the infielders cross the foul lines before the batter-runner reaches first base, under (3) we should call the batter runner out, even if she makes an immediate attempt to get to first.

That's bogus. The rationale behind ruling (3) in the case book is to deal with a situation where the BR essentially abandons her effort to advance. We're not going to stand there and wait while she saunters to the dugout, takes off her helmet, hands it to a teammate, waits for another teammate to bring her her chest protector, shin guards, helmet/mask and mitt, puts on her equipment, etc. etc., and she never enters the dugout.

In fact, I think (2) is even more bogus than (3). Why wait until the time of the next pitch in this scenario, or any other scenario for that matter? I can't envision a situation where an umpire is going to allow for a pitch to be delivered while this BR is still somewhere on the field. Ok, maybe if after she strikes out with less than two outs, she immediately goes to the coach's box and assumes coaching duties, or she goes to the bullpen area that is inside the fences to warm up. But I'm ruling her out well before that for abandonment.

[MD Longhorn]

Coach has no basis for complaint. His team did not complete the out. ANY decent catcher knows that if they don't catch the third strike, they have to complete the out. And any decent coach knows the same.

Ball is live - not your fault the defense started leaving the field.

[CecilOne]

Good call, Chapmaja, and good research.

We keep finding editing needs in all the books, unfortunately.

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Coach has no basis for complaint. His team did not complete the out. ANY decent catcher knows that if they don't catch the third strike, they have to complete the out. And any decent coach knows the same.

Ball is live - not your fault the defense started leaving the field.

Does anyone know what the college rule is on this? The reason I ask is the coach in question was a 4 year starter for a major DI softball program and played in the WCWS as a player. I think she may have felt the rule was the same as college. Is the rule different.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

OK, had this one today. Coach wasn't happy with my ruling. Was I correct or not? Fed rules.

2 out, none on base. Uncaught 3rd strike on B3. B3 starts walking toward the first base dugout (enterence is about even with 1st base). She never enteres dead ball terriroty. The catcher rolls the ball to the pitching circle as the defense heads towards their dugout. I called the third stirke, and went in line with first base and watched for somthing else to happen (either she entered DBT or the defense makes a play). Finally, B3 realizes the situation and goes to first base. By the time she arrives at first base, the defense has huddled in live ball territory outside the dugout. I call B3 safe, which does not make the coach happy. She starts coming over to argue as B3 starts going from first to second, then on to third base. The DC realizes this and the players run onto the field, grab the ball and almost get B3 at third.

The closest thing I can find to this is the casebook play on page 50 Situation 8-1-1. There are three instances where B3 could be called out on a D3K situation. First, she enters DBT, which did not happen. Second, she does not reach first base by the next pitch (again not applicable). third, the infields have all left the diamond before she B3 reachers third base. This is the one I am questioning. I can not find anywhere in the rulebook a specification for leaving the diamond. Does this mean leaving live ball terrritory (in which case the call was incorrect and she should have been out), or does it mean leaving the dirt area of the diamond.

P.S. Due to several injured umpires, I was working a JV game 1 man today.

Case play mentions the infielders leaving the "diamond". Does NFHS define diamond. If you want to be specific, the "diamond" is made from the baselines. If this were the case, after every third strike, the infielders would just need to step outside the baselines to prevent the BR from advancing

The offense cannot control the defenses actions, so that interpretation (which is NOT supported by the cited rule) is a bit ambiguous.

Now, you noted the DC started to argue. If that did occur to the point she drew your attention, you could have killed the play. However, I would only do that base on the attention you afforded her. If her presence caused you to turn away from the play, you probably should have called time. Yes, I know that you may be depriving the offense of advancement, but you were by yourself and I doubt you have eyes in the back of your head

[Dakota]

chap, you're getting yourself wrapped around the axle over a poorly written case play ruling.

The case play is simply trying to explain the conditions that apply to a BR who does not immediately attempt to advance on a D3K. Once she starts advancing, the conditions of the case play ruling no longer apply.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

Does anyone know what the college rule is on this? The reason I ask is the coach in question was a 4 year starter for a major DI softball program and played in the WCWS as a player. I think she may have felt the rule was the same as college. Is the rule different.

The college rule says simply that the BR is out if she leaves the field of play on the uncaught third strike. There are no case plays that mention the BR cannot advance after the next pitch or after the defense leaves fair territory.