From an association quiz

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Intentional Fly?

Cutting through the irrelevant stuff, the answer to your question is that YES, the umpire can (and very likely should, in this case) retroactively rule an INFIELD fly and place runners accordingly. Umpires should have called it at its apex (IFF if Fair), but having failed to do so they MUST fix this error, call BR out, and leave the runners on 1st and 2nd.

NO, you should not allow a double play here, as the runner only advanced because of the umpire's error in not calling it an IFF when he was supposed to.

I did not say anything about when the IFR was called. In the event it is close to the line the proper mechanic is Infield Fly if Fair. If that call is made, then the only option on the play is a double play.

Now, as for the situation if the umpire does not make the call initially.

The proper ruling, which I just found in the casebook is:

B4 is out on an infield fly, even if it is not called initially the batter is out. Also, R2 is out for being tagged while off the base.

This is from the casebook play on page 15, (2.30 Situation B)

Ultimately it is up to the offensive team to know the situation. I can understand the idea of not counting the double play, but the proper situation for the offense in this case is to stay on the base. If no infield fly is rule, R2 is out when they are tagged standing on the base (force out). If the IFR is in play, they are safe while standing on first base, and the Batter is out on the IFR. The only bad option is to stand off the base, allowing yourself to be tagged out.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

I did not say anything about when the IFR was called.

You didn't say it was called at all. If it WAS called, it changes the scenario completely. Including the fact that it was called is as important as mentioning a runner was tagged out - it's critical to the situation.

Omitting relevant information is not going to get you the answer you're looking for, most of the time.

If IFF was called, then you have a double play, and really don't have anything to discuss. Pretty straightforward in that case and coaches have nothing to argue about either.

[Multiple Sports]

Double play whether called or not.....

If we don't call an in field fly on a ball hit above the shortstop in this scenario,

we would still have a dp.....this scenario is no different....

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Multiple Sports

Double play whether called or not.....

If we don't call an in field fly on a ball hit above the shortstop in this scenario,

we would still have a dp.....this scenario is no different....

That would be incorrect

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

That would be incorrect

How would it be incorrect?

[Multiple Sports]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

That would be incorrect

IM -

Please explain your logic....

The ball is a fair ball when it is touched. If runners that are on base, make the IF rule applicable, then the rule must be enforced. Runners advance at their own
risk. They run get tagged out = double play ( two outs )....

Am I missing something.....

[Multiple Sports]

Can an administrator also put this on the baseball site with an explanation as to why it was added.

Am curious what fed baseball guys would have....

[NavyChiefBlue]

Originally Posted by Multiple Sports

Can an administrator also put this on the baseball site with an explanation as to why it was added.

Am curious what fed baseball guys would have....

As a baseball guy, I would have 2 outs. IFR does not need to be called, if it is great, if not, sorry, but the situation still warrants it. Runners need to know the rules as well.

Have a great day!

STRIKES AND OUTS!!!

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Multiple Sports

IM -

Please explain your logic....

The ball is a fair ball when it is touched. If runners that are on base, make the IF rule applicable, then the rule must be enforced. Runners advance at their own
risk. They run get tagged out = double play ( two outs )....

Am I missing something.....

The failure of the umpire to make the ruling in a timely manner placed the runner in jeopardy.

[andyump]

If anyone is a nysso ump they would know in the Manuel on page 41 it states
If the batted ball lands uncaught and the umpires failed to declare an infield fly, the umpires shall not declare and infield fly
Rationale to call infield fly so late would lead. To further confusion
THis is. Nys interpretation not ASA

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

You didn't say it was called at all. If it WAS called, it changes the scenario completely. Including the fact that it was called is as important as mentioning a runner was tagged out - it's critical to the situation.

Omitting relevant information is not going to get you the answer you're looking for, most of the time.

If IFF was called, then you have a double play, and really don't have anything to discuss. Pretty straightforward in that case and coaches have nothing to argue about either.

Actually is does not change anything on the play. If the IFR is invoked, either when the ball reaches it's highest point, or prior to the next pitch, it is the same ruling.

The runner who is tagged while off base is out and the batter runner is out on the IFR.

It is still the responsibility of the offensive team to know the situation. There is no way a runner tagged out when off base is put back on the base because the umpires did not call the IFR.

[RKBUmp]

It is still the responsibility of the offensive team to know the situation. There is no way a runner tagged out when off base is put back on the base because the umpires did not call the IFR.

That is not entirely true. If the umpire does not call the IFF in a situation where it should have been and the end result ends up with runners being put out who would not have been otherwise the umpire can and should invoke the IFF after the fact and put runners back on base.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

You didn't say it was called at all. If it WAS called, it changes the scenario completely. Including the fact that it was called is as important as mentioning a runner was tagged out - it's critical to the situation.

Omitting relevant information is not going to get you the answer you're looking for, most of the time.

If IFF was called, then you have a double play, and really don't have anything to discuss. Pretty straightforward in that case and coaches have nothing to argue about either.

It was presented as a test question, not a real situation.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Dakota

It was presented as a test question, not a real situation.

I get that. And IFF was not called. Then chap said, "I did not say anything about when the IFR was called," - implying that it WAS called. Which, despite chap's insistence, CAN change the situation.

If the original scenario was presented on a test, but it said IFF was called... there would be nothing to discuss. The question would be easy. The DP would be obvious - and no coach with a quarter of a brain would complain.

IFF not called is the CRUX of this discussion. It brings into play the concern that the lack of call put someone at jeopardy - and if so, we must protect them. I do agree that if the runner is just wandering off base for no apparent reason (and not confused by the lack of IFF call, running, and then trying to return, or something like that), you probably still have a double play.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

It brings into play the concern that the lack of call put someone at jeopardy - and if so, we must protect them.

I wondered if anyone else was considering that.

I certainly hope that was not a test consideration.