Just one of those nights.

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by LIUmp

As a BU, why are you calling the hands violation?? That should be your partner's call. Not yours. ESPECIALLY in a 15 run game.

Per the association meeting Sunday evening, BOTH umpires should be looking for illegal pitches, and both can call illegal pitches. I will defer to them, and the fact the association is run by college umpires with substantial high school experience as well over you telling me it is not my call. Sorry.

[LIUmp]

Of course both umpires CAN call it...the point is, why isn't your partner and why ARE you? Why, in a 15 run rule type game, are YOU looking to call this in the third inning? You mean the entire game she hadn't done it, and you or your partner hadn't discussed it up until this point? And now YOU are calling it? Seems OOO.

By the way...don't care who is running your association. (As of your previous illegal bat post, I didn't think you HAD an association). What they say is correct. Both umpires can call any illegal pitch they see. My question is why are you (the BU) calling THAT type of illegal pitch?

Seems like you're 2 for 2 with partners this year. Guess you're not working with any of those "college umpires with substantial high school experience".

You're talking a JV game that has reached a run rule and you as the BU are calling a hands violation as an illegal pitch. You yourself admitted that you didn't call this until the third inning, when mercy had basically been reached. I'm willing to bet half the girls at the JV level are in some way illegal. So, in this situation you presented, if I were your partner, I'd not be too happy with you.

If you care to know my credentials, I'm a college umpire with substantial high school experience, and my county's high school rules interpreter. So I'm not talking out of my rear here. But blow me off if you want to. If you have any doubts, I'd tell your situation to one of your "college umpires with substantial high school experience" and see what they think.

[LIUmp]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

Per the association meeting Sunday evening, BOTH umpires should be looking for illegal pitches, and both can call illegal pitches. I will defer to them, and the fact the association is run by college umpires with substantial high school experience as well over you telling me it is not my call. Sorry.

To clarify, I'm not saying to "defer to me" over your association heads. But I bet if you ask them, they'd say the same thing I am saying. This is a call that SHOULD be made by the PU. If he/she is not, I'm questioning why they saw it and chose to ignore it - and in a 15 run game, in the third inning, I'm not "looking" for this, unless it's obvious; and then I go back to asking why my partner isn't making the call. You mentioned that "you warned her earlier in the game" - that's not your job either. An IP is an IP, not a warning. You either call it or you don't. And your partner should spend less time laughing about the girl wearing jewelry and more time being on the same page with you.

I'm only trying to help you.

[azbigdawg]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

Per the association meeting Sunday evening, BOTH umpires should be looking for illegal pitches, and both can call illegal pitches. I will defer to them, and the fact the association is run by college umpires with substantial high school experience as well over you telling me it is not my call. Sorry.

Leave the hands to the plate umpire. As the BU you have enough to look for.

[EsqUmp]

Another reason why we shouldn't be addressing players. The pitcher doesn't know what you're talking about. The jewelry-wearing player didn't listen.

BRING IT TO THE COACH'S ATTENTION AND LET THE COACH ADDRESS IT. IT IS NOT OUR RESPONSIBILITY TO COACH PLAYERS OR ORDER THEM TO DO THINGS.

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by EsqUmp

Another reason why we shouldn't be addressing players. The pitcher doesn't know what you're talking about. The jewelry-wearing player didn't listen.

BRING IT TO THE COACH'S ATTENTION AND LET THE COACH ADDRESS IT. IT IS NOT OUR RESPONSIBILITY TO COACH PLAYERS OR ORDER THEM TO DO THINGS.

The jewelry wearing player was brought to the attention of the coach, and the coach thought she had taken it out. It was also brought up at the coaches meeting as well because she was one of the team captains.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by EsqUmp

Another reason why we shouldn't be addressing players. The pitcher doesn't know what you're talking about. The jewelry-wearing player didn't listen.

BRING IT TO THE COACH'S ATTENTION AND LET THE COACH ADDRESS IT. IT IS NOT OUR RESPONSIBILITY TO COACH PLAYERS OR ORDER THEM TO DO THINGS.

NFHS 3-6-16 Penalty: "If minor, the umpire may warn the offender and eject if the offense is repeated."

NFHS 6-4-4 Penalty: "The umpire shall warn a pitcher who delivers a pitch with excessive speed."

NFHS 8-1-1d Effects: "Otherwise, the coach or captain of the team at bat, after being informed by the plate umpire of the obstruction..."

NFHS Case Play 1.5.3B Ruling: "The umpire shall inform the on-deck batter that she is limited to two bats..."

NFHS Case Play 1.6.1B Ruling: "The umpire shall instruct the appropriate individual to secure a legal batting helmet..."

NFHS Case Play 1.6.2B Ruling: "In (b) and (c), the umpire informs the player that she is not to remove her helmet during a live ball..."

NFHS Case Play 1.8.4A Ruling: "The umpire should inform the defensive players that they are subject to obstruction if they continue to discard their face protection..."

NFHS Case Play 3.2.12B Ruling: "The umpire will instruct B1 that she must remove the ring or she will not be permitted to play."

I could go on and on. The fact is, NFHS instructs umpires to talk to players when necessary. True, it's better to let coaches deal with infractions, but to say it's not our responsibility to order players to do things is not accurate.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by EsqUmp

Another reason why we shouldn't be addressing players.

This is a very "youth-league" point of view. High school age, we should be addressing the player.

The pitcher doesn't know what you're talking about. The jewelry-wearing player didn't listen.

Not our problem that they don't know what we're talking about or don't listen - although with jewelry I'd tell both player and coach.

[EsqUmp]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

This is a very "youth-league" point of view. High school age, we should be addressing the player.

Not our problem that they don't know what we're talking about or don't listen - although with jewelry I'd tell both player and coach.

Not at all. It's not my business to tell a 14 year old girl what to do. NFHS has this all efed up.

I'm not coaching players. I'm not telling young teenagers what to do. The coach could to it. It's the coach's damn job.

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by EsqUmp

Not at all. It's not my business to tell a 14 year old girl what to do. NFHS has this all efed up.

I'm not coaching players. I'm not telling young teenagers what to do. The coach could to it. It's the coach's damn job.

No, it is the umpires job, as specified in the rules. Yes, the coaches should be instructing the players in the proper way to do things, BUT when they violate the rules the officials should be telling them what the violation is, which is specified clearly in NFHS rules.

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

This is a very "youth-league" point of view. High school age, we should be addressing the player.

Not our problem that they don't know what we're talking about or don't listen - although with jewelry I'd tell both player and coach.

Jewelry requires the player and coach to be notified by rule. The player is required to remove the offending item in order to be eligible to participate and the coach shall be informed because the umpires are required to issue a warning to the team that the next player not legally equipped will be restricted to the dug out.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by EsqUmp

BRING IT TO THE COACH'S ATTENTION AND LET THE COACH ADDRESS IT. IT IS NOT OUR RESPONSIBILITY TO COACH PLAYERS OR ORDER THEM TO DO THINGS.

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

And, IMO, anyone who blows off an observed violation (and I'm not talking about a guess) because that "isn't my call" or the perceived assignment of areas or bases isn't doing their job.

DITTO to both, a precedent.

How many more times do we have to say that especially in HS/MS; we should not be telling players to do anything; and over and over again, the proper jewelry statement is "s/he can't play with that" or "s/he forgot the jewelry" NOT "take it off" or "remove it"?

And yes, Manny, your cases are well stated by you, but are improperly worded and "inform the player" must be through the coach. None of them say anything about directly to the player.

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

DITTO to both, a precedent.

How many more times do we have to say that especially in HS/MS; we should not be telling players to do anything; and over and over again, the proper jewelry statement is "s/he can't play with that" or "s/he forgot the jewelry" NOT "take it off" or "remove it"?

And yes, Manny, your cases are well stated by you, but are improperly worded and "inform the player" must be through the coach. None of them say anything about directly to the player.

Where does the book say inform the player through the coach. The book says inform the player, not inform the coach to inform the player.

[LIUmp]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

I had one of those nights today. JV DH, on bases first game, plate the second.

3rd inning of game 1, visiting team is hammering the home team. Home team pitcher steps on with the hands apart, brings the hands together, separates the hands, brings them back together, then pitches. I call her for an illegal pitch. (I had warned her earlier, but apparently she didn't understand the warning. I explain to her what is called and she really has no clue, so the coach comes out and I explain it to the coach. Finally the pitcher understands what is going on, and corrects the action, but starts something illegal on subsequent pitches (more on that later). As soon as we finally get the pitcher understanding what she is doing, the visiting coach says I want a courtesy runner for my catcher. He comes the CR, who is wearing a nose ring (which I had asked her to take out before the game when she handed me a bat to check. Now we have a warning for the nose ring, to the team. The plate ump, catcher, and batter are all laughing because everything is going on.

Finally we get back underway with the nose ring out, and the pitcher getting the first part of the motion correct, but now she brings the hands together and separates them almost instantly. I finally say I'm just not going to call it and will tell the coach, since it was a 15 run mercy at the end of that inning anyway.

The second game went ok with me at that plate except for those dreaded words from the catchers "this is my first time catching" Only one foul hit the face mask (off the catcher) and only a couple missed pitches hit unprotected areas.

It also didn't help that the game time temp for game 2 was 42 degrees with 15 Mph winds.

Final combined score. 6 innings played total, visiting team 36, home team 6 (5 of which came in the top of the third (teams switch home and away designations for the second game of a DH).

Long cold night.

Originally Posted by chapmaja

The jewelry wearing player was brought to the attention of the coach, and the coach thought she had taken it out. It was also brought up at the coaches meeting as well because she was one of the team captains.

Originally Posted by chapmaja

Where does the book say inform the player through the coach. The book says inform the player, not inform the coach to inform the player.

Do not get in the habit of talking to the players. No good comes of it.

What's more likely to happen:

1- "oh, yeah, the umpire DID tell me already to take the nose ring out, coach."

2- "He said, it's okay...you can play with it since you can't take it out."

3- "He never told me anything about it."

You think she's going to be honest? I'd say 1 is least likely.

Just tell the coach at the pregame. If it's seen, you restrict to dugout.

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by LIUmp

Do not get in the habit of talking to the players. No good comes of it.

What's more likely to happen:

1- "oh, yeah, the umpire DID tell me already to take the nose ring out, coach."

2- "He said, it's okay...you can play with it since you can't take it out."

3- "He never told me anything about it."

You think she's going to be honest? I'd say 1 is least likely.

Just tell the coach at the pregame. If it's seen, you restrict to dugout.

You are stating that if you tell the coach at the pre-game that a player has jewelry on and then in the game you see it on you can restrict to the dug out at that time.

You are DEAD WRONG on this. When a player is illegally equipped in the game, the team shall be issued a warning.

There is a casebook play which somewhat illustrates this ruling. 3-2-12 Sit. D

The comment indicates: The jewelry rule only applies to players in the game, not on the bench.

At the time of the pre-game conference, there were no players in the game, because the game had not begun yet.

You can't penalize a player on the bench during the game if you see them with jewelry on either. They can't be penalized until they are in the game, at which time a violation has occurred.