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-   -   Got to vent. (https://forum.officiating.com/softball/97662-got-vent.html)

Dakota Tue Apr 01, 2014 01:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by youngump (Post 930177)
So I looked up the rule: (from the definition of conference)
ART. 2 . . . Pregame Conference. A pregame conference is a meeting involving
the umpires and head coaches near home plate. (4-1-2). Team captains may
also attend.

So the clown may have something of a point. The rule says that the head coach and team captains may attend. Team captains aren't defined by rule so I will continue to assume that everyone attending the meeting is either a team captain or a head coach unless I receive local direction to the contrary.
I guess you could use that rule definition to go the way you're saying Manny, but from my perspective I think it's taking the hard way out of the problem. If the problem is you're getting too many interruptions from coaches, just seems you should take more control of the conference. Coach, we're not going to have a rules clinic today. It seems to me that would give you less trouble than announcing that so and so is not entitled to attend the meeting and has to leave.
But, the rule does not say who may not attend. The implication I have always taken from this rule is that the head coach is required to attend (due to 4-1-2d).

MD Longhorn Tue Apr 01, 2014 01:30pm
I generally don't care who comes to the conference as long as only one is talking. However, I HAVE worked in areas where due to some sort of prior problem they enforced this strictly - HC and captain only. Perhaps either the area this game was in was one of those areas, or the umpire had just come from one.

Then again, given the amount of idiotry he displayed during the rest of the game, I suspect he has no real idea that he was technically right here - but was instead just being "that guy".

MD Longhorn Tue Apr 01, 2014 01:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dakota (Post 930183)
But, the rule does not say who may not attend. The implication I have always taken from this rule is that the head coach is required to attend (due to 4-1-2d).
Yes, but if they intended anyone to be allowed to join in, they wouldn't have specifically mentioned one other (captain) who may attend.

HC MUST attend, Captain may attend.

RKBUmp Tue Apr 01, 2014 01:59pm
So, under 3-1-2 "One or more players may be designated captain", a team can designate every girl as team captains and send them all out for the pregame meeting, but an assistant coach is specifically banned?

youngump Tue Apr 01, 2014 02:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dakota (Post 930183)
But, the rule does not say who may not attend. The implication I have always taken from this rule is that the head coach is required to attend (due to 4-1-2d).
It does sort of imply it by authorizing the captain(S). If anyone could attend, then what would be the point of saying the captains may attend.

youngump Tue Apr 01, 2014 02:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by RKBUmp (Post 930190)
So, under 3-1-2 "One or more players may be designated captain", a team can designate every girl as team captains and send them all out for the pregame meeting, but an assistant coach is specifically banned?
I missed that when I scanned the rules for captains earlier. Guess I won't have a leg to stand on when I ignore the presence of the assistant coach at my game today.

Dakota Tue Apr 01, 2014 02:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by youngump (Post 930192)
It does sort of imply it by authorizing the captain(S). If anyone could attend, then what would be the point of saying the captains may attend.
I always took it to mean that a rep of the players may also attend (i.e., the captain).

I think we need to be careful about assuming something is illegal merely because it is not specifically stated that it is legal.

Manny A Tue Apr 01, 2014 02:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by youngump (Post 930177)
So I looked up the rule: (from the definition of conference)
ART. 2 . . . Pregame Conference. A pregame conference is a meeting involving
the umpires and head coaches near home plate. (4-1-2). Team captains may
also attend.
.
.
.
I guess you could use that rule definition to go the way you're saying Manny...
Again, I never said I would not allow assistant coaches to attend, and I felt there was no rule against it, your quote notwithstanding. I just feel that if they are compelled to do so, they should be there in listening mode only out of courtesy. And if I were an assistant coach for my daughter's team, I wouldn't bother attending because I have plenty of other things to do while that conference is going on. If she and the team captains cannot convey to the rest of the team what was said, they need more instruction on why they go to the plate conference.

BTW, this is from the 2010-2011 NFHS Softball Umpires Manual:

Pregame Conference with Head Coaches
1. The Plate Umpire (P) should be positioned behind home plate facing the outfield with each team’s head coaches on each side of home plate. The base umpire(s) (B) will be opposite the plate umpire facing the backstop. Team captains and assistant coaches may also attend the pregame conference.

So at least the old Umpires Manual says it's okay for them to attend. I assume that hasn't been changed in the 2014-2015 version.

RKBUmp Tue Apr 01, 2014 02:35pm
Didnt even think to look in the umpire manual. The wording has not changed in the 2014/2015 manual. In fact it starts out with:

No less than five minutes before game time, all umpires meet the coaches and captains (and game administration if tournament play) at home plate for ground rules.

HugoTafurst Wed Apr 02, 2014 12:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by RKBUmp (Post 930164)
It was bad enough just making the bad calls and really not knowing the rules. What really about put me over the top was when he told me I didnt want to get into a rules discussion with him because he knew all the rules. I just had to walk away, nothing I was going to respond with was going to come out well. And it wasnt like he had a partner he could go verify anything with, so it would have been like arguing with a wall.
Smart move on your part

IRISHMAFIA Wed Apr 02, 2014 09:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MD Longhorn (Post 930186)
Yes, but if they intended anyone to be allowed to join in, they wouldn't have specifically mentioned one other (captain) who may attend.

HC MUST attend, Captain may attend.
If I remember correctly, this was either a change or made a priority a few years ago meant for the purpose of requiring the head coach to attend.

I couldn't care less who is at the plate, I'm the only one talking until I ask a question or for any questions.

MD Longhorn Thu Apr 03, 2014 08:36am
Just curious... other than the first game of the season in a local league that has squirrelly rules that have to be explained... and other than that once-per-season odd ground rule (if that often)

Has any coach ever learned anything from an umpire at the plate conference? Has any umpire ever learned anything useful from a coach (other than ... "OK, now I know which coach is going to be a problem today" :) )?

The conference is for the exchanging of lineup cards and (rarely) the discussion of any weird ground rules. Everything else is fluff.

Manny A Thu Apr 03, 2014 11:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by MD Longhorn (Post 930388)
Just curious... other than the first game of the season in a local league that has squirrelly rules that have to be explained... and other than that once-per-season odd ground rule (if that often)

Has any coach ever learned anything from an umpire at the plate conference? Has any umpire ever learned anything useful from a coach (other than ... "OK, now I know which coach is going to be a problem today" :) )?

The conference is for the exchanging of lineup cards and (rarely) the discussion of any weird ground rules. Everything else is fluff.
In our area, when two HS teams from different conferences play each other, the conference rules from the home team's conference regarding the 10-run rule and ITB apply. When I remind the two coaches whether or not we're using the 10-run rule and ITB, I sometimes get a puzzled look from the visiting team's coach whose conference rules are different. Some of these coaches just don't do their homework.

MD Longhorn Thu Apr 03, 2014 12:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny A (Post 930408)
In our area, when two HS teams from different conferences play each other, the conference rules from the home team's conference regarding the 10-run rule and ITB apply. When I remind the two coaches whether or not we're using the 10-run rule and ITB, I sometimes get a puzzled look from the visiting team's coach whose conference rules are different. Some of these coaches just don't do their homework.
I guess, for high school - that would qualify as a weird ground rule that you have to mention - at least it's weird to your visitor.


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