The Official Forum

The Official Forum (https://forum.officiating.com/)
-   Softball (https://forum.officiating.com/softball/)
-   -   Got to vent. (https://forum.officiating.com/softball/97662-got-vent.html)

RKBUmp Mon Mar 31, 2014 09:29pm

Got to vent.
 
I really do not know how anyone who has umpired can coach a team when you are dealing with umpires that do not know rules. My daughter asked me to help her coach her junior high team and today was their first game. Here is a short list of what we dealt with.

Umpire showed up 15 minutes late. Checks equipment and pulls 2 of our bats, a Stealth that was my daughters college bat and one of the kids personal bats that is brand new. I ask what is wrong with the bats, he tells me the Stealth has some chips in the paint and the other bat has a dent. I ask why he is tossing the Stealth because of the paint chips and he told me the rules specifically state the bat can have no chips. OK, guess I missed that part of the rule book. The other bat he must have the most calibrated hands on earth because I sure as heck couldnt feel any dents in the brand new bat.

Pregame meeting, I walk out with my daughter and captains to the pregame. Umpire looks at me and says who are you? I tell him I am one of the coaches. He asks if I am the head coach. I tell him no, my daughter is the head coach. He then tells me the pregame is restricted to head coaches and captains only and I have to leave the pregame.

One of our players was literally turning the corner into the dugout and pulled off her helmet as she turned the corner. 1 foot was in dugout the other on the field. He restricted the player to the dugout.

One of the players headband fell out of her back pocket while she was at bat. She picked it up and wrapped it around her wrist. Instead of telling her no she couldnt do that, he issues her and my daughter warnings for jewelry.

In the 3rd inning I was trying to keep score and coach 1st base. Apparently my daughter had put a wrong number on one of the players and we had already gone through the lineup twice and neither I or the other team had caught it. I noticed the number and asked my daughter if she had put in a sub. She said no, the girl bats and walks and 2 more batters come up after her and she has at this point advanced to 3rd. Suddenly the umpire calls time, calls the runner on 3rd out and restricts both the player and my daughter to the dugout. Im just keeping my mouth shut because I couldnt hear what was being said on other side of the field. Umpire goes back behind plate and then tells me I have to move to the 3rd base coaches box. I ask why, he tells me the head coach must be in the 3rd base box. So, I head over to the 3rd base box, my daughter is right there and I ask what happened. She tells me he called the runner out for being out of order and restricted them both to the dugout. I call time and approach the umpire. I told him I never saw or heard the other team make any appeals. He tells me they didnt, he discovered the incorrect number himself. I explain that is an appeal that must be made by the defense. He tells me it is discoverable by the umpire at any time and I dont want to get in a rules discussion with him because he knows every rule. I just walked back to the coaches box.

Pitchers on both teams were illegal all day and no IP calls which I am fine with. Its junior high ball and most of the kids have never played before. Other team brings in a new pitcher. She starts her warmup pitches and puts her left foot on the plate with her right foot back like a lefty would pitch except she is right handed. She then starts her windup and steps forward with her left foot. As I said, pitchers for both teams had been doing things illegal all day, double touching, stepping on with hands together, one was literally skipping out off the plate and pitching. So this new pitcher throws her first pitch and suddenly he calls an IP. I figure he must have gotten her for the way she had her feet. Nope, double touch. He hit her probably 3 more times after that and yet he hadnt called it on the other 2 pitchers.


Those are just the highlites.

Dakota Mon Mar 31, 2014 10:23pm

All I can say is... good job keeping yourself under control!

azbigdawg Tue Apr 01, 2014 04:57am

Quote:

Originally Posted by RKBUmp (Post 930073)
I really do not know how anyone who has umpired can coach a team when you are dealing with umpires that do not know rules. My daughter asked me to help her coach her junior high team and today was their first game. Here is a short list of what we dealt with.

Umpire showed up 15 minutes late. Checks equipment and pulls 2 of our bats, a Stealth that was my daughters college bat and one of the kids personal bats that is brand new. I ask what is wrong with the bats, he tells me the Stealth has some chips in the paint and the other bat has a dent. I ask why he is tossing the Stealth because of the paint chips and he told me the rules specifically state the bat can have no chips. OK, guess I missed that part of the rule book. The other bat he must have the most calibrated hands on earth because I sure as heck couldnt feel any dents in the brand new bat.

Pregame meeting, I walk out with my daughter and captains to the pregame. Umpire looks at me and says who are you? I tell him I am one of the coaches. He asks if I am the head coach. I tell him no, my daughter is the head coach. He then tells me the pregame is restricted to head coaches and captains only and I have to leave the pregame.

One of our players was literally turning the corner into the dugout and pulled off her helmet as she turned the corner. 1 foot was in dugout the other on the field. He restricted the player to the dugout.

One of the players headband fell out of her back pocket while she was at bat. She picked it up and wrapped it around her wrist. Instead of telling her no she couldnt do that, he issues her and my daughter warnings for jewelry.

In the 3rd inning I was trying to keep score and coach 1st base. Apparently my daughter had put a wrong number on one of the players and we had already gone through the lineup twice and neither I or the other team had caught it. I noticed the number and asked my daughter if she had put in a sub. She said no, the girl bats and walks and 2 more batters come up after her and she has at this point advanced to 3rd. Suddenly the umpire calls time, calls the runner on 3rd out and restricts both the player and my daughter to the dugout. Im just keeping my mouth shut because I couldnt hear what was being said on other side of the field. Umpire goes back behind plate and then tells me I have to move to the 3rd base coaches box. I ask why, he tells me the head coach must be in the 3rd base box. So, I head over to the 3rd base box, my daughter is right there and I ask what happened. She tells me he called the runner out for being out of order and restricted them both to the dugout. I call time and approach the umpire. I told him I never saw or heard the other team make any appeals. He tells me they didnt, he discovered the incorrect number himself. I explain that is an appeal that must be made by the defense. He tells me it is discoverable by the umpire at any time and I dont want to get in a rules discussion with him because he knows every rule. I just walked back to the coaches box.

Pitchers on both teams were illegal all day and no IP calls which I am fine with. Its junior high ball and most of the kids have never played before. Other team brings in a new pitcher. She starts her warmup pitches and puts her left foot on the plate with her right foot back like a lefty would pitch except she is right handed. She then starts her windup and steps forward with her left foot. As I said, pitchers for both teams had been doing things illegal all day, double touching, stepping on with hands together, one was literally skipping out off the plate and pitching. So this new pitcher throws her first pitch and suddenly he calls an IP. I figure he must have gotten her for the way she had her feet. Nope, double touch. He hit her probably 3 more times after that and yet he hadnt called it on the other 2 pitchers.


Those are just the highlites.

:eek:

Please tell me this was on the West side of town.... you know how those west side umpires are......;)

PATRICK Tue Apr 01, 2014 05:27am

Quote:

Originally Posted by RKBUmp (Post 930073)
I really do not know how anyone who has umpired can coach a team when you are dealing with umpires that do not know rules. My daughter asked me to help her coach her junior high team and today was their first game. Here is a short list of what we dealt with.

Umpire showed up 15 minutes late. Checks equipment and pulls 2 of our bats, a Stealth that was my daughters college bat and one of the kids personal bats that is brand new. I ask what is wrong with the bats, he tells me the Stealth has some chips in the paint and the other bat has a dent. I ask why he is tossing the Stealth because of the paint chips and he told me the rules specifically state the bat can have no chips. OK, guess I missed that part of the rule book. The other bat he must have the most calibrated hands on earth because I sure as heck couldnt feel any dents in the brand new bat.

Pregame meeting, I walk out with my daughter and captains to the pregame. Umpire looks at me and says who are you? I tell him I am one of the coaches. He asks if I am the head coach. I tell him no, my daughter is the head coach. He then tells me the pregame is restricted to head coaches and captains only and I have to leave the pregame.

One of our players was literally turning the corner into the dugout and pulled off her helmet as she turned the corner. 1 foot was in dugout the other on the field. He restricted the player to the dugout.

One of the players headband fell out of her back pocket while she was at bat. She picked it up and wrapped it around her wrist. Instead of telling her no she couldnt do that, he issues her and my daughter warnings for jewelry.

In the 3rd inning I was trying to keep score and coach 1st base. Apparently my daughter had put a wrong number on one of the players and we had already gone through the lineup twice and neither I or the other team had caught it. I noticed the number and asked my daughter if she had put in a sub. She said no, the girl bats and walks and 2 more batters come up after her and she has at this point advanced to 3rd. Suddenly the umpire calls time, calls the runner on 3rd out and restricts both the player and my daughter to the dugout. Im just keeping my mouth shut because I couldnt hear what was being said on other side of the field. Umpire goes back behind plate and then tells me I have to move to the 3rd base coaches box. I ask why, he tells me the head coach must be in the 3rd base box. So, I head over to the 3rd base box, my daughter is right there and I ask what happened. She tells me he called the runner out for being out of order and restricted them both to the dugout. I call time and approach the umpire. I told him I never saw or heard the other team make any appeals. He tells me they didnt, he discovered the incorrect number himself. I explain that is an appeal that must be made by the defense. He tells me it is discoverable by the umpire at any time and I dont want to get in a rules discussion with him because he knows every rule. I just walked back to the coaches box.

Pitchers on both teams were illegal all day and no IP calls which I am fine with. Its junior high ball and most of the kids have never played before. Other team brings in a new pitcher. She starts her warmup pitches and puts her left foot on the plate with her right foot back like a lefty would pitch except she is right handed. She then starts her windup and steps forward with her left foot. As I said, pitchers for both teams had been doing things illegal all day, double touching, stepping on with hands together, one was literally skipping out off the plate and pitching. So this new pitcher throws her first pitch and suddenly he calls an IP. I figure he must have gotten her for the way she had her feet. Nope, double touch. He hit her probably 3 more times after that and yet he hadnt called it on the other 2 pitchers.


Those are just the highlites.

No protests?

RKBUmp Tue Apr 01, 2014 07:54am

Quote:

Originally Posted by azbigdawg (Post 930116)
:eek:

Please tell me this was on the West side of town.... you know how those west side umpires are......;)

Yes it was west side. Charter school athletic association. It was all I could do to keep my mouth shut as I didnt want to get my kid in any more trouble with the guy. Not only was it many of the kids first game it was also her 1st game as a head coach. I warned her last week about jewelry and that she was likely to run into some overzealous umpires who took things to the extreme. Well, she got it out of the way her very first game.

I was debating if I should contact the charter school association, but the more I think about it someone really needs to straighten this guy out on the rules. I will draft an email later addressing all the bogus calls he made along with rules references and send it to his assigner.

CecilOne Tue Apr 01, 2014 07:56am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dakota (Post 930077)
All I can say is... good job keeping yourself under control!

Ditto, proving to all that you are an umpire.

Manny A Tue Apr 01, 2014 08:04am

Sounds like you only had one umpire, correct?

Obviously, the guy was a rules nazi, which you typically find in the lower level games where the umpires are relatively new to the program. They focus more on trying to find rule violations than they do on just calling the game, perhaps to impress people on their rules knowledge. Unfortunately, they make up a few to demonstrate their true lack of knowledge. I've worked with a couple of them in my local area. They are the ones who will call a half-dozen illegal pitches, twice as many obstruction calls, a couple of leaving base earlies, and maybe even a uniform violation. When I see them on my assignments, I know I'm in for a long game with a couple of pissed off coaches.

In HS games, I rarely see multiple coaches attend the plate conference. I see it more often at ASA tournaments, for whatever reason. What's the purpose of the second coach standing there listening in? Obviously there is no rule against it, but perhaps your umpire was told in a clinic that only the head coach should participate in the conference. Heck, he may have even brought that from his days of umpiring Little League; who knows. I just wonder why you felt compelled to be out there with your daughter.

For the IP calls, if this umpire was solo, then the missed foot violations are understandable. From his angle, would he have been able to tell the righty pitcher had her pivot foot behind the pitcher's plate? Could he have thought she was in contact with her toes on top?

Not that I'm trying to defend this guy... :p

RKBUmp Tue Apr 01, 2014 08:14am

Quote:

In HS games, I rarely see multiple coaches attend the plate conference. I see it more often at ASA tournaments, for whatever reason. What's the purpose of the second coach standing there listening in?
Yes, one umpire. Why wouldnt all coaches want to hear what the umpire had to say first hand? That way there is no translation issues passed down the line. Especially in this case when as I turned to walk away he tells the captains they need to pay close attention becase "we have a lot of stuff to go over" and then proceeds to have a 5 minute pregame.

As I said, it was also my daughters first game as a head coach and I am doing what I can to assist her in learning as quickly as possible. I am not going to be available to her much during the season and she is going to be dealing with trying to coach 19 kids all by herself.

CecilOne Tue Apr 01, 2014 08:21am

Ref: Manny, 9:04 today

Maybe not relatively new, maybe JV for ability or history.

If RKB is trying to help his daughter coach, then why not be with her as much as possible; maybe help clarify a plate conference item. If she accepted the BOO call, then she apparently need his help with rules.

There are games when it is better for more than one coach to hear the ground rules, time limits, etc.

Did the ump only half hear the "head coach must attend" rule? Not an excuse, just another case of mislearning (is that a word?)

Andy Tue Apr 01, 2014 10:17am

Quote:

Originally Posted by azbigdawg (Post 930116)
:eek:

Please tell me this was on the West side of town.... you know how those west side umpires are......;)

Easy now....you have more than enough of these guys on the east side of town as well....

Andy Tue Apr 01, 2014 10:19am

Quote:

Originally Posted by RKBUmp (Post 930129)
Yes it was west side. Charter school athletic association. It was all I could do to keep my mouth shut as I didnt want to get my kid in any more trouble with the guy. Not only was it many of the kids first game it was also her 1st game as a head coach. I warned her last week about jewelry and that she was likely to run into some overzealous umpires who took things to the extreme. Well, she got it out of the way her very first game.

I was debating if I should contact the charter school association, but the more I think about it someone really needs to straighten this guy out on the rules. I will draft an email later addressing all the bogus calls he made along with rules references and send it to his assigner.


Good luck with that letter. If the assignor is who I think it is, I doubt he knows that rules any better and has a history of sending warm bodies out in order to cover all the games.

Manny A Tue Apr 01, 2014 10:19am

Quote:

Originally Posted by CecilOne (Post 930134)
Ref: Manny, 9:04 today

Maybe not relatively new, maybe JV for ability or history.

If RKB is trying to help his daughter coach, then why not be with her as much as possible; maybe help clarify a plate conference item. If she accepted the BOO call, then she apparently need his help with rules.

There are games when it is better for more than one coach to hear the ground rules, time limits, etc.

Did the ump only half hear the "head coach must attend" rule? Not an excuse, just another case of mislearning (is that a word?)

I personally don't have a problem with multiple coaches at the pre-game, as long as they stand there and are quiet. :D When these "extras" start carrying on extensive conversations with everything that is put out during the ground rules, run limits, time limits, etc., is when I have a concern. After all, if they're the ones asking all the questions for clarification, then they should be the ones representing the team as head coach, and let the newbies stand quietly and learn.

Rich Tue Apr 01, 2014 10:57am

I'm reading this thread as someone who's about to be a coach for the first time.

It's a team playing in 8U and 10U tournaments this summer (my daughter is one of the players). I can only imagine the (semi?) warm bodies we'll get as umpires.

RKBUmp Tue Apr 01, 2014 11:02am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich (Post 930163)
I'm reading this thread as someone who's about to be a coach for the first time.

It's a team playing in 8U and 10U tournaments this summer (my daughter is one of the players). I can only imagine the (semi?) warm bodies we'll get as umpires.

It was bad enough just making the bad calls and really not knowing the rules. What really about put me over the top was when he told me I didnt want to get into a rules discussion with him because he knew all the rules. I just had to walk away, nothing I was going to respond with was going to come out well. And it wasnt like he had a partner he could go verify anything with, so it would have been like arguing with a wall.

youngump Tue Apr 01, 2014 12:53pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manny A (Post 930148)
I personally don't have a problem with multiple coaches at the pre-game, as long as they stand there and are quiet. :D When these "extras" start carrying on extensive conversations with everything that is put out during the ground rules, run limits, time limits, etc., is when I have a concern. After all, if they're the ones asking all the questions for clarification, then they should be the ones representing the team as head coach, and let the newbies stand quietly and learn.

So I looked up the rule: (from the definition of conference)
ART. 2 . . . Pregame Conference. A pregame conference is a meeting involving
the umpires and head coaches near home plate. (4-1-2). Team captains may
also attend.

So the clown may have something of a point. The rule says that the head coach and team captains may attend. Team captains aren't defined by rule so I will continue to assume that everyone attending the meeting is either a team captain or a head coach unless I receive local direction to the contrary.
I guess you could use that rule definition to go the way you're saying Manny, but from my perspective I think it's taking the hard way out of the problem. If the problem is you're getting too many interruptions from coaches, just seems you should take more control of the conference. Coach, we're not going to have a rules clinic today. It seems to me that would give you less trouble than announcing that so and so is not entitled to attend the meeting and has to leave.

Dakota Tue Apr 01, 2014 01:08pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by youngump (Post 930177)
So I looked up the rule: (from the definition of conference)
ART. 2 . . . Pregame Conference. A pregame conference is a meeting involving
the umpires and head coaches near home plate. (4-1-2). Team captains may
also attend.

So the clown may have something of a point. The rule says that the head coach and team captains may attend. Team captains aren't defined by rule so I will continue to assume that everyone attending the meeting is either a team captain or a head coach unless I receive local direction to the contrary.
I guess you could use that rule definition to go the way you're saying Manny, but from my perspective I think it's taking the hard way out of the problem. If the problem is you're getting too many interruptions from coaches, just seems you should take more control of the conference. Coach, we're not going to have a rules clinic today. It seems to me that would give you less trouble than announcing that so and so is not entitled to attend the meeting and has to leave.

But, the rule does not say who may not attend. The implication I have always taken from this rule is that the head coach is required to attend (due to 4-1-2d).

MD Longhorn Tue Apr 01, 2014 01:30pm

I generally don't care who comes to the conference as long as only one is talking. However, I HAVE worked in areas where due to some sort of prior problem they enforced this strictly - HC and captain only. Perhaps either the area this game was in was one of those areas, or the umpire had just come from one.

Then again, given the amount of idiotry he displayed during the rest of the game, I suspect he has no real idea that he was technically right here - but was instead just being "that guy".

MD Longhorn Tue Apr 01, 2014 01:31pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dakota (Post 930183)
But, the rule does not say who may not attend. The implication I have always taken from this rule is that the head coach is required to attend (due to 4-1-2d).

Yes, but if they intended anyone to be allowed to join in, they wouldn't have specifically mentioned one other (captain) who may attend.

HC MUST attend, Captain may attend.

RKBUmp Tue Apr 01, 2014 01:59pm

So, under 3-1-2 "One or more players may be designated captain", a team can designate every girl as team captains and send them all out for the pregame meeting, but an assistant coach is specifically banned?

youngump Tue Apr 01, 2014 02:09pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dakota (Post 930183)
But, the rule does not say who may not attend. The implication I have always taken from this rule is that the head coach is required to attend (due to 4-1-2d).

It does sort of imply it by authorizing the captain(S). If anyone could attend, then what would be the point of saying the captains may attend.

youngump Tue Apr 01, 2014 02:13pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by RKBUmp (Post 930190)
So, under 3-1-2 "One or more players may be designated captain", a team can designate every girl as team captains and send them all out for the pregame meeting, but an assistant coach is specifically banned?

I missed that when I scanned the rules for captains earlier. Guess I won't have a leg to stand on when I ignore the presence of the assistant coach at my game today.

Dakota Tue Apr 01, 2014 02:25pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by youngump (Post 930192)
It does sort of imply it by authorizing the captain(S). If anyone could attend, then what would be the point of saying the captains may attend.

I always took it to mean that a rep of the players may also attend (i.e., the captain).

I think we need to be careful about assuming something is illegal merely because it is not specifically stated that it is legal.

Manny A Tue Apr 01, 2014 02:29pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by youngump (Post 930177)
So I looked up the rule: (from the definition of conference)
ART. 2 . . . Pregame Conference. A pregame conference is a meeting involving
the umpires and head coaches near home plate. (4-1-2). Team captains may
also attend.
.
.
.
I guess you could use that rule definition to go the way you're saying Manny...

Again, I never said I would not allow assistant coaches to attend, and I felt there was no rule against it, your quote notwithstanding. I just feel that if they are compelled to do so, they should be there in listening mode only out of courtesy. And if I were an assistant coach for my daughter's team, I wouldn't bother attending because I have plenty of other things to do while that conference is going on. If she and the team captains cannot convey to the rest of the team what was said, they need more instruction on why they go to the plate conference.

BTW, this is from the 2010-2011 NFHS Softball Umpires Manual:

Pregame Conference with Head Coaches
1. The Plate Umpire (P) should be positioned behind home plate facing the outfield with each team’s head coaches on each side of home plate. The base umpire(s) (B) will be opposite the plate umpire facing the backstop. Team captains and assistant coaches may also attend the pregame conference.


So at least the old Umpires Manual says it's okay for them to attend. I assume that hasn't been changed in the 2014-2015 version.

RKBUmp Tue Apr 01, 2014 02:35pm

Didnt even think to look in the umpire manual. The wording has not changed in the 2014/2015 manual. In fact it starts out with:

No less than five minutes before game time, all umpires meet the coaches and captains (and game administration if tournament play) at home plate for ground rules.

HugoTafurst Wed Apr 02, 2014 12:30pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by RKBUmp (Post 930164)
It was bad enough just making the bad calls and really not knowing the rules. What really about put me over the top was when he told me I didnt want to get into a rules discussion with him because he knew all the rules. I just had to walk away, nothing I was going to respond with was going to come out well. And it wasnt like he had a partner he could go verify anything with, so it would have been like arguing with a wall.

Smart move on your part

IRISHMAFIA Wed Apr 02, 2014 09:16pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn (Post 930186)
Yes, but if they intended anyone to be allowed to join in, they wouldn't have specifically mentioned one other (captain) who may attend.

HC MUST attend, Captain may attend.

If I remember correctly, this was either a change or made a priority a few years ago meant for the purpose of requiring the head coach to attend.

I couldn't care less who is at the plate, I'm the only one talking until I ask a question or for any questions.

MD Longhorn Thu Apr 03, 2014 08:36am

Just curious... other than the first game of the season in a local league that has squirrelly rules that have to be explained... and other than that once-per-season odd ground rule (if that often)

Has any coach ever learned anything from an umpire at the plate conference? Has any umpire ever learned anything useful from a coach (other than ... "OK, now I know which coach is going to be a problem today" :) )?

The conference is for the exchanging of lineup cards and (rarely) the discussion of any weird ground rules. Everything else is fluff.

Manny A Thu Apr 03, 2014 11:57am

Quote:

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn (Post 930388)
Just curious... other than the first game of the season in a local league that has squirrelly rules that have to be explained... and other than that once-per-season odd ground rule (if that often)

Has any coach ever learned anything from an umpire at the plate conference? Has any umpire ever learned anything useful from a coach (other than ... "OK, now I know which coach is going to be a problem today" :) )?

The conference is for the exchanging of lineup cards and (rarely) the discussion of any weird ground rules. Everything else is fluff.

In our area, when two HS teams from different conferences play each other, the conference rules from the home team's conference regarding the 10-run rule and ITB apply. When I remind the two coaches whether or not we're using the 10-run rule and ITB, I sometimes get a puzzled look from the visiting team's coach whose conference rules are different. Some of these coaches just don't do their homework.

MD Longhorn Thu Apr 03, 2014 12:06pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manny A (Post 930408)
In our area, when two HS teams from different conferences play each other, the conference rules from the home team's conference regarding the 10-run rule and ITB apply. When I remind the two coaches whether or not we're using the 10-run rule and ITB, I sometimes get a puzzled look from the visiting team's coach whose conference rules are different. Some of these coaches just don't do their homework.

I guess, for high school - that would qualify as a weird ground rule that you have to mention - at least it's weird to your visitor.


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:11am.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1