1+1

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by Rita C

Fly ball is hit to F6 and caught. F6 throws to first to try to double up runner there. Ball is thrown into dead ball territory.

Which levels of softball award second and which award third? I know some do.

Rita

It is my understanding that USSSA slowpitch (only; not even USSSA fastpitch) defines this award as the one they are heading to plus one.

I have NEVER heard of any other recognized organization or ruleset saying anything other "two from the time of the throw", without any regard to which direction the runner is heading at the time of the throw.

[Rita C]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

It is my understanding that USSSA slowpitch (only; not even USSSA fastpitch) defines this award as the one they are heading to plus one.

I have NEVER heard of any other recognized organization or ruleset saying anything other "two from the time of the throw", without any regard to which direction the runner is heading at the time of the throw.

Thank you. I was pretty sure there was one brand of slow pitch that did.

Rita

[Crabby_Bob]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

It is my understanding that USSSA slowpitch (only; not even USSSA fastpitch) defines this award as the one they are heading to plus one.

I have NEVER heard of any other recognized organization or ruleset saying anything other "two from the time of the throw", without any regard to which direction the runner is heading at the time of the throw.

LLSB, being derived from OBR, is two bases from the time of the pitch for a throw on the first play by an infielder. You're correct that the direction does not matter.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Crabby_Bob

LLSB, being derived from OBR, is two bases from the time of the pitch for a throw on the first play by an infielder. You're correct that the direction does not matter.

The catch is the first play.

[Crabby_Bob]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

The catch is the first play.

Thank you.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

It is my understanding that USSSA slowpitch (only; not even USSSA fastpitch) defines this award as the one they are heading to plus one.

Does that mean an award of only 2nd if the runner is heading back to 1st in an OP type situation??

[BretMan]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Does that mean an award of only 2nd if the runner is heading back to 1st in an OP type situation??

For USSSA, it's an award of second base no matter which way the runner is heading.

That is, no matter which way the runner is heading, the base award is (one) the base that was left too soon on the catch, then (two) the next advanced base. The runner's direction when the ball was thrown or went out of play is irrelevant.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by BretMan

For USSSA, it's an award of second base no matter which way the runner is heading.

That is, no matter which way the runner is heading, the base award is (one) the base that was left too soon on the catch, then (two) the next advanced base. The runner's direction when the ball was thrown or went out of play is irrelevant.

Please keep saying slow pitch for this, USSSA Fast Pitch is like the normal world, two from wherever the runner at the TOT.

[BuggBob]

This happened to me once. On Monday night wearing a red shirt (USSSA Slow pitch) trying to double off a runner who had left too early ball goes out of play, I put the runner at second. Offensive coach goes nuts, a lot too nuts and gets to watch the rest of the game from the parking lot. On Friday the same team but with me in a blue shirt (ASA Slow pitch) the near exact thing happens, but this time the team is on defense, I put the runner on third. Same coach goes nuts telling me that the guy from Monday told him the runner only gets second. I remind him that was me and the ruling was correct for Monday, but incorrect for Friday. While his behavior was better, he never understood that the difference wasn’t days of the week but governing bodies. He protested the ASA game to USSSA (protest denied, thanks for the $25).

[BretMan]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Please keep saying slow pitch for this, USSSA Fast Pitch is like the normal world, two from wherever the runner at the TOT.

Well, every post up to mine stated that this was the case for slow pitch, and the part from your post I quoted was specially about slow pitch, so it seemed kind of redundant to say it again.

But if it will make you happy...slow pitch, slow pitch, slow pitch!

[CVLLBlue]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

It is my understanding that USSSA slowpitch (only; not even USSSA fastpitch) defines this award as the one they are heading to plus one.

I have NEVER heard of any other recognized organization or ruleset saying anything other "two from the time of the throw", without any regard to which direction the runner is heading at the time of the throw.

Can anyone know what this ruling would be for National Federation.of Softball Slowpitch would be? My daughter's middle school plays by this rule set and the umpires are oblivious of rules. Had one award a ground rule triple when he could see the ball in the outfield corner, (never went out of play. F7 immediately pick up the ball. He killed the play when the batter/runner reached 3rd base)

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by CVLLBlue

Can anyone know what this ruling would be for National Federation.of Softball Slowpitch would be? My daughter's middle school plays by this rule set and the umpires are oblivious of rules. Had one award a ground rule triple when he could see the ball in the outfield corner, (never went out of play. F7 immediately pick up the ball. He killed the play when the batter/runner reached 3rd base)

Are you sure you do not mean the National Federation of High Schools, which generally is used for high schools and middle schools. If so, the answer would be as above, two bases from where the runner is at the time of the throw. I don't think any rule book has a ground rule triple.

It also seems you refer to a batted ball, not a thrown ball as the posts above. That would be two bases from the runner position at the time of the pitch, IF the ball goes dead.

[CVLLBlue]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Are you sure you do not mean the National Federation of High Schools, which generally is used for high schools and middle schools. If so, the answer would be as above, two bases from where the runner is at the time of the throw. I don't think any rule book has a ground rule triple.

It also seems you refer to a batted ball, not a thrown ball as the posts above. That would be two bases from the runner position at the time of the pitch, IF the ball goes dead.

I used the National Federation of Softball only because the organization that runs their leagues uses that on their website. I am pretty well sure they mean the NFHSA.
Most of the umpires seem to be inexperienced ASA guys not really interested during the game. You are correct in that there is no such thing as a ground rule triple. I just used that as an example of the quality of umpires that are hired. In the situation I cited was just because he was too lazy to move up that line away from the plate. The fences at this field are about 170-180 ft at best.
Thanks for the answer.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by CVLLBlue

Can anyone know what this ruling would be for National Federation.of Softball Slowpitch would be? My daughter's middle school plays by this rule set and the umpires are oblivious of rules. Had one award a ground rule triple when he could see the ball in the outfield corner, (never went out of play. F7 immediately pick up the ball. He killed the play when the batter/runner reached 3rd base)

Ground rules are ground rules - specific to the field you're playing on. "Ground Rule Double" is really "Rule Book Double".. I've been on fields with a ground rule triple before - and what you describe could easily be a ground rule on the field you happened to be on.

That said, this scenario you describe doesn't match the OP at all. Apples and Ducks.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Ground rules are ground rules - specific to the field you're playing on. "Ground Rule Double" is really "Rule Book Double".. I've been on fields with a ground rule triple before - and what you describe could easily be a ground rule on the field you happened to be on.
.

Though many an umpire will scoff at the thought, this is absolutely true.

Speaking ASA

The term "ground rule double" is another matter of convenience that is, IMO, inappropriately used in the rules index. The term is not part of the rules or wording.

For that matter, whether it is a double or not is purely up to the scorekeeper and not a matter for an on-field official.

By definition, "ground" rules are specific to the grounds (read field) upon which the game is being played. While many relate to championship play on completely enclosed fields, ground rules are often a very important part of games played on non-enclosed fields.

I've been on fields where the overgrown landscape is approx. 350' away from the plate. A runner could, and has been, rounding 3rd base by the time the ball reaches the high weeded area. Try selling a logical (other then, "it's in the book") reason for sending the runner back to 2nd base because the defense couldn't do their job.

I will often just not recognize the high grass and tell the teams the field is open, keep playing the ball. When someone objects to that at the pre-game meeting, I simply remind them that using the book means that when their runner is rounding 3rd with the tie-breaking winning run and the ball just gets into the high grass, I'm going to be forced to send that runner back if the plate was beyond the 2 base award. They usually aren't too happy with that possibility. However, it is their game and I will allow coaches to have input to any special rule needed to play the game.

Point is that the rule book awards x number of bases on plays under the presumption that the field meets championship play requirements as far as being enclosed within the minimum/maximum parameters stated in Rule 2. The "ground" rules are to supplement those rules when those parameters are exceeded or there is an obstruction located within the confines of the playing field that are not standard to the playing field (i.e. rolled tarp, media area, etc.)

So, the possibility of a ground rule triple, while being somewhat remote, could come into play.

Understand, however, that "ground rules" are covered prior to the start of the game and barring a change an in-game change in the environment, should remain the same throughout.