Drop 3rd Strike (ASA)

[jbambas]

I'm the head umpire for my local park district and had a bit of a run-in with a neighboring park district umpire who we have joined up with to increase the total number of teams that play each other. The problem is the "house rules" vary slightly and there is one that is really bothering me. This "long-timer" insists that he has been umpiring for 30 plus years and that there is NEVER a drop third strike when there are 2 outs. He called it a "3rd strike rule"??? There was no talking to him about it since his 30 plus was obviously more correct than my 8 years. I politely told him that his interpritation was an interesting one and walked away. I looked up rule 8.1.b (I think that was the number) in the ASA book which is written much poorer than in the NFHS book, and it seemed pretty clear (and makes comon sense to me) that there is ALWAYS a drop 3rd with 2 outs regardless of where the other runners are. I talked to a few other umpires who are ASA certified and was a little suprised to find that there really does seem to be two interpretations. So....I'm now very confused as to why everyone isn't on the same page on what always seemed to me to be a very simple rule.

Thanks,

Confused Blue ???????

[CecilOne]

1) Obviously, the batter becomes a BR on an uncaught third strike with 2 outs, regardless of runner(s).
2) I'm not sure if the confusion is in the interpretation or in the discussion or what you referred to with "He called it a "3rd strike rule"???".
3) I commend you for being polite.
4) Refer them to the "batter is out" section as well as the B bceomes a BR section.

[jbambas]

Thanks Cecil. Especially before I reread the rule for myself, there was no sense getting mad at him. I teach all my new umps (usually 15-18 year olds) that umpire people skill #1 is LISTEN, THINK and then TALK. I've had many a partner who hasn't quite got the first 2 down and like to use the TALK, TALK LOUDER (because I'm always right) method. I try to do my part in teaching the future of our craft. Anyway, now I get to get in is face and say "I told you so you big dummy !!!" LOL Just kidding.

Thanks Again,

Somewhat Less Confused Blue.

[Dakota]

ASA Rule 8-1B says clearly that the batter becomes a batter-runner if the catcher fails to catch the third strike and there are 2 outs.

There is an exception for 10U, but otherwise, the batter may attempt to reach 1st base on a dropped 3rd strike with 2 outs.

With fewer than 2 outs, 1st base must be unoccupied.

But with 2 outs, the batter is not out and may attempt to advance.

[WillyS]

I don't understand the confudion.
Very cut and dried to me.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by Dakota
ASA Rule 8-1B says clearly that the batter becomes a batter-runner if the catcher fails to catch the third strike and there are 2 outs.

There is an exception for 10U, but otherwise, the batter may attempt to reach 1st base on a dropped 3rd strike with 2 outs.

With fewer than 2 outs, 1st base must be unoccupied.

But with 2 outs, the batter is not out and may attempt to advance.

Wow!!!! Thirty years of umpiring nothing, but 10U softball! Now, that is a seasoned veteran. Don't know what he is seasoned with, but definitely seasoned.

[greymule]

You know how many people have hit me with idiotic, preposterous rule interpretations and then "backed it up" by saying they've umpired a lot? Of course, if all this guy ever did was 10u softball, then he might not know what goes on beyond his four walls.

If you think for a moment about the reasoning behind the uncaught-third-strike rule, it is obvious that it would always apply with 2 outs, just as the IFR could never apply with 2 outs.

[Edited by greymule on Aug 6th, 2003 at 12:46 PM]

[CecilOne]

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA
Wow!!!! Thirty years of umpiring nothing, but 10U softball! Now, that is a seasoned veteran. Don't know what he is seasoned with, but definitely seasoned.



[/B]

That's a , not

[Dakota]

Originally posted by CecilOne

That's a , not [/B]

Or, maybe a

[CecilOne]

Originally posted by greymule
You know how many people have hit me with idiotic, preposterous rule interpretations and then "backed it up" by saying they've umpired a lot? Of course, if all this guy ever did was 10u softball, then he might not know what goes on beyond his four walls.

If you think for a moment about the reasoning behind the uncaught-third-strike rule, it is obvious that it would always apply with 2 outs, just as the IFR could never apply with 2 outs.

[Edited by greymule on Aug 6th, 2003 at 12:46 PM]

Like coaches/players who say no one ever called that before.

Are you saying you never met a coach/player who thought you could have an IFF with two outs or one runner?

Were there 10U special rules 30 years ago, at his last clinic?

[greymule]

I find that after I call an infield fly, many of the fans think that every batter who hits a fly in the infield should be called out. So they get on me if the lead-off batter of an inning hits a popup and I don't call him out.

These people can vote, too, many of them.

[Skahtboi]

[/B]

That's a , not [/B][/QUOTE]Or, maybe a [/B][/QUOTE]

Several pints of Guinness later and I still get this!

[bluezebra]

Originally posted by greymule
You know how many people have hit me with idiotic, preposterous rule interpretations and then "backed it up" by saying they've umpired a lot? Of course, if all this guy ever did was 10u softball, then he might not know what goes on beyond his four walls.

If you think for a moment about the reasoning behind the uncaught-third-strike rule, it is obvious that it would always apply with 2 outs, just as the IFR could never apply with 2 outs.

[Edited by greymule on Aug 6th, 2003 at 12:46 PM]

Excuse me. Where in the two posts by jbambas did he mention the ages of the players? So how did you decide they were 10U?

Bob

[jbambas]

I know he does ump 10U as well as the older girls. In my park district we have no drop third for 10U (per in-house rules). I really can't imagine that the average 9 yr old catcher has any chance of getting a girl out at 1st. The 10U travel team is another story, but then again, they arn't usually your average 9 or 10 yr olds. In our house league we try to keep it fun and fair for everyone. Knowing personally how the 10U house league plays, here is what I'm imagining...On the occasion that one of the house league pitchers actually throws three strikes the chances are the catcher usually isn't going to catch it. Next is my favorite part....CHAOS ENSUES. It truely tickles me to watch and listen at this point. One side's coaches yelling for their girl to run, the other for the catcher to get the ball and throw to 1st and 8 other little girls on the field looking somewhere between confused at what exactly they should be doing and scared that they may have already not done it. Plus if we did use drop third for 10U, my guess is 4 innings within the 2 hour time limit we have.

As for my "well-seasoned" friend, he may have just finished a 10U game in his district where they play it the way he described it, while I rarely ump anything other than the 16U girls who play it by the standard ASA rule. Now I really am curious and will have to track him down and ask. One of my most memorable ejections of a coach stemed from him not listening and insisting on arguing with me about a call I made correctly AND IN HIS FAVOR. The next time we met up he appologized (his other coach had explained what happened when he calmed down) and we had a good laugh about it. Just remember, if they don't get it the first time, just talk louder and slower (it sometimes works for people who speak a different language as well.


Jeff B

[CecilOne]

Originally posted by bluezebra
... snip ... So how did you decide they were 10U?
Bob [/B]

Going back to the IrishMafia Aug 6th, 2003 01:19 PM post with the little grin, we were being facetious about his experience being only with no advance on U3K; therefore solely with ASA "10U".