Lessons Learned from 18U Gold (Long Post)

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

...I slightly disagree with some, strongly disagree with others,...

Me, too. Well, you can't really disagree with a statement that something is "not an approved mechanic", but you can have the opinion that it either should be approved, or at least tolerated (i.e. no negative comment in an eval). The only one I would say I "strongly" disagree with is #6. Stating it that absolutely is the disagreement. Hanging out in foul territory can be a lazy thing to do, but there are situations where it is the only thing to do without getting in the middle of the play.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Dakota

Me, too. Well, you can't really disagree with a statement that something is "not an approved mechanic", but you can have the opinion that it either should be approved, or at least tolerated (i.e. no negative comment in an eval). The only one I would say I "strongly" disagree with is #6. Stating it that absolutely is the disagreement. Hanging out in foul territory can be a lazy thing to do, but there are situations where it is the only thing to do without getting in the middle of the play.

I can disagree with a statement that something is not an approved mechanic when someone just as high as these guys said it was, or dinged umpires for not doing it. (Specifically the swipe signal and signalling safe when there may be confusion on whether a violation happened.

I personally heard 2 of the 3 Texas commissioners (on separate occasions) illustrate the BU helping PU on a possible dropped strike. (Only one of the two mentioned pointing down on a drop, but both advocated the fist if you actively saw the catcher catch the ball)

6 - well, it should be avoided, but it happens... I'd say that if it happens to you more than once or twice a year, you're probably not being quick enough about judging that you CAN get to a button hook without getting in the way. But it DOES happen, and "do no harm" should come first.

7 is one of the ones I was personally dinged on at a state clinic just 2 seasons ago. I was dinged for NOT bracketing from U1 on a ball near the fence/dugout on my side.

8 is directly in conflict with what we've been told fifty-something times at all sorts of levels. DON'T call time just to get umpires in position, and DO move such that we are not all moving at once without eyes on the field. To the point that when I see a new U1, U3, or BU partner simply running back to his spot before without making eye contact with his partner(s), it irks me.

(I do agree with, and have been taught in agreement with 2(tap), 3, 5, 9, and 10)

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

...6 - well, it should be avoided, but it happens... I'd say that if it happens to you more than once or twice a year, you're probably not being quick enough about judging that you CAN get to a button hook without getting in the way. But it DOES happen, and "do no harm" should come first.

Like I said, it was the absolute way it is stated that I disagree with.

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

8 is directly in conflict with what we've been told fifty-something times at all sorts of levels. DON'T call time just to get umpires in position, and DO move such that we are not all moving at once without eyes on the field...

Maybe Mike was the UIC?

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

8 is directly in conflict with what we've been told fifty-something times at all sorts of levels. DON'T call time just to get umpires in position, and DO move such that we are not all moving at once without eyes on the field. To the point that when I see a new U1, U3, or BU partner simply running back to his spot before without making eye contact with his partner(s), it irks me.

To be honest, I was rather surprised by this as well. I've always believed in the credo, "Don't call Time when it's not necessary." And I think umpires staggering their movements back to their positions doesn't really increase game delays as long as they hustle when they move. I suppose this falls into the category of "Better be safe than sorry."

[outathm]

Of course, all of your games had to be replayed since the mechanical errors you committed caused the outcome to change.

It amazes me how much we, as umpires, think that people pay attention to what we are doing.

If we went the entire game without signaling safes and outs, I would be willing to bet that 97% of the time the runner would wither walk back into the dugout or go back to the base.

I agree that the NCAA vs ASA mechanic argument is true, but I also have a strong suspicion that Manny does not work enough NCAA ball to have developed NCAA habits. It may be the people in his area are NCAA people and have taught him the NCAA way.

[Rich]

Posts like these remind me why I probably could never be a top softball umpire and contribute to why I'm baseball-only and have been for over 15 years. It does help me appreciate some of the differences, though, since I could be coaching my daughter's team next year.

Looking at the list, I'm most stunned at #1. I would ding a baseball umpire for NOT giving a safe signal on a close interference/no interference situation.

Oh, and #3. The sure sign of a baseball umpire that needs some training (or at least needs to be told about it) is a plate guy who signals foul on a ball straight back to the screen instead of reaching into the ball bag to give another ball to the catcher. Or a base umpire who signals foul on a ball obviously out of play.

Different strokes, and all that.

I wonder if Manny's training was mainly rooted in baseball. Most of his list are baseball umpiring mechanics.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Actually, don't know why any of these are even considered an issue. There is nothing there that shouldn't have been known and familiar before being assigned to a tournament of this level for ASA.

Obviously, there are some deviations that should NOT earn an umpire a gig if there was a reason for it occurring (i.e., call from foul ground). Again, though, it should be the exception, not the standard.

This stuff is the standard that has been included in schools and clinics for more than a decade. If it is a shock to you, that means you even haven't gone to the clinics or your clinicians are not presenting you with what is expected.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Actually, don't know why any of these are even considered an issue. There is nothing there that shouldn't have been known and familiar before being assigned to a tournament of this level for ASA.
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This stuff is the standard that has been included in schools and clinics for more than a decade. If it is a shock to you, that means you even haven't gone to the clinics or your clinicians are not presenting you with what is expected.

Guilty as charged. I haven't been to an ASA school or clinic (other than routine pre-season training with my association). The vast majority of what I know is through OJT from previous ASA Nationals, Showcases, and other tournaments. And with the exception of maybe two or three games a year, I work two-man in those games.

And as others have pondered, I did start out as a baseball-only umpire, and worked baseball for about 12 years, before moving over to softball. To this day, I still bring those nasty baseball habits onto the skinned moundless field with me (like tracking pitches only with my eyes, not signalling foul on the ball back to the screen, etc.)

So maybe I wasn't cut out to be "assigned to a tournament of this level for ASA." But I can tell you that there wasn't a single umpire from what I saw or heard during post-game critiques of other crews who didn't screw a couple of these things up. Perhaps it's because they all had extensive NCAA experience, or maybe they, like me, had a baseball background. Or maybe they were just human.

Whatever the case, I was not alone in either forgetting, or just being totally unfamiliar with, the "ASA way" that was expected of us in this National. And I posted my observations to help others here who may be in the same boat.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Rich

Looking at the list, I'm most stunned at #1. I would ding a baseball umpire for NOT giving a safe signal on a close interference/no interference situation.

Oh, and #3. The sure sign of a baseball umpire that needs some training (or at least needs to be told about it) is a plate guy who signals foul on a ball straight back to the screen instead of reaching into the ball bag to give another ball to the catcher. Or a base umpire who signals foul on a ball obviously out of play.

So, you support making a call on something that did not happen, yet you don't want a signal on something that did?

I don't have a problem with no big signal on an obvious foul ball EXCEPT to notify a player who is NOT AWARE of the OBVIOUS foul ball and is still playing the game. Remember, just because it is obvious to you, doesn't mean it is obvious to everyone on the field. And, BTW, the calls and signals are for them, not you.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

So, you support making a call on something that did not happen, yet you don't want a signal on something that did?

I don't have a problem with no big signal on an obvious foul ball EXCEPT to notify a player who is NOT AWARE of the OBVIOUS foul ball and is still playing the game. Remember, just because it is obvious to you, doesn't mean it is obvious to everyone on the field. And, BTW, the calls and signals are for them, not you.

And when they're needed, they're given. On a clear foul ball back to the screen or a ball clearly out of play, nobody needs an umpire and the signal is superfluous. The base umpire might say, "it's foul" to an advancing runner, but even that's not a requirement.

On a ball that barely misses a runner, a safe signal clearly tells everyone that "I saw the ball and it didn't hit the runner." It's a signal that communicates something useful.

Like I said, different strokes. Doesn't make your way better or my way better, but those guys that work both sports had better know the ways of each unless they want to get marked down. Sitting next to an evaluator, for example, I saw the pen come out when a plate guy said "dead ball" on a HBP in a baseball game last week. Absolutely wrong in baseball, but proper in softball.

Unlike softball, though, I can work essentially the same mechanics in every one of my baseball games. Apparently there's a heackuva schism in softball between the different bodies.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by Dakota

The only one I would say I "strongly" disagree with is #6. Stating it that absolutely is the disagreement. Hanging out in foul territory can be a lazy thing to do, but there are situations where it is the only thing to do without getting in the middle of the play.

Well, it wasn't stated to us in absolute, so I apologize if that's what it sounded like. There are always a couple of exceptions where a call from foul ground would have to happen. They just emphasized that foul territory should not be the first option, such as on a throw to first from right field.

[Crabby_Bob]

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[Andy]

Originally Posted by Manny A

Well, it wasn't stated to us in absolute, so I apologize if that's what it sounded like. There are always a couple of exceptions where a call from foul ground would have to happen. They just emphasized that foul territory should not be the first option, such as on a throw to first from right field.

Thanks for the clarification.

When I was at the GOLD in 2011, we were told at our pre-tournament clinic that it was allowable to go into foul territory to make a call if needed, one of the examples given was a pickoff play at third.

This was a departure from the ASA norm at the time, and did raise some questions from long-time ASA umpires. I was surprised when reading the OP on this one.

As far as umpires at the GOLD knowing the expectations, I was told that three of the 40 umpires at my tournament in 2011 had never worked a three-umpire game in their life. If that is the case, that needs to fall back on the local UIC that recommended these umpires for the tournament.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Andy

As far as umpires at the GOLD knowing the expectations, I was told that three of the 40 umpires at my tournament in 2011 had never worked a three-umpire game in their life. If that is the case, that needs to fall back on the local UIC that recommended these umpires for the tournament.

Andy, that could be part of the problem. It isn't always the UIC who makes the nominations, right Steve?

In some cases, it is commissioners, district commissioners, etc. When I did the 16's, I talked to the host state UIC and he had no input on the umpires. Knew who they were, but not necessarily if they were qualified.

[Steve M]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Andy, that could be part of the problem. It isn't always the UIC who makes the nominations, right Steve?

In some cases, it is commissioners, district commissioners, etc. When I did the 16's, I talked to the host state UIC and he had no input on the umpires. Knew who they were, but not necessarily if they were qualified.

Sure is. But, I can only speak about what happens locally - not with any authority, just what I've experienced.