Player Leaving first base

[outathm]

In a game earlier today I had a player run to first and touch it, on a question- able Fair Ball call.

When she reached first base her first base coach told her to go back to home to bat. She did not touch first on the return trip to the plate. She was about 4-5 steps down the line and then ran back to first for a dive back in on a pick off attempt by the catcher.

Interested to hear what everyone thinks about whether or not she should have been out for look back if the ball was in the circle?

ASA was the rule set.

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by outathm

In a game earlier today I had a player run to first and touch it, on a question- able Fair Ball call.

When she reached first base her first base coach told her to go back to home to bat. She did not touch first on the return trip to the plate. She was about 4-5 steps down the line and then ran back to first for a dive back in on a pick off attempt by the catcher.

Interested to hear what everyone thinks about whether or not she should have been out for look back if the ball was in the circle?

ASA was the rule set.

This is an interesting issue. I would assume that when she ran to first she over ran first base. The rules require an immediate return to the base, and since she did not return that could be an issue itself. I am trying to visualize the play so I can see how exactly the situation occurred.

I think case I think the level of play would also dictate the way I would handle it. If this was a girls 5th grade game I would be handling it one way. In that type game, I am ruling a dead ball, and giving the runner first base, then having a chat with the coach. If this is a 18U game, it's being handled differently. Why handle it differently? I expect a lot more knowledge from an 18U player than a player in a 5th grade game (and from the coaches to be honest).

Now if someone else other than the coach had said to go back, I don't have any problem with an immediate dead ball and an award of first base. If this is a comment from an opposing player / coach I've got verbal obstruction and will award accordingly. If this from a spectator I'm having game management talk with the person, or will do it myself if need be.

As for the original question. I don't have a LBR violation on this because I find it hard to see the play as being done at that point, and I'm not ruling a LBR violation unless the playing action is really dead and then she does something else.

One other thing on this. The umpires could also take some responsibility in this. I have seen situations where an umpire is so soft spoken on calls that they can't be heard. An umpire that is very quiet in their calls on foul balls runs into trouble on plays like this. If the call can't be heard, or if the umpire has poor mechanics coaches may not know the call and that could lead to confusion. An umpire who is consistently making loud foul ball calls avoids problems because the players should be able to hear when a ball is called foul and know it must be fair when no call is heard.

[chuck chopper]

No foul. Seems more like a continuation of a communication issue.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by outathm

In a game earlier today I had a player run to first and touch it, on a question- able Fair Ball call.

When she reached first base her first base coach told her to go back to home to bat. She did not touch first on the return trip to the plate. She was about 4-5 steps down the line and then ran back to first for a dive back in on a pick off attempt by the catcher.

Interested to hear what everyone thinks about whether or not she should have been out for look back if the ball was in the circle?

ASA was the rule set.

When you say questionable, do you mean the umpire hesitated or that the ball was probably foul and the umpire pointed fair, or even worse, offered a verbal "fair"?

If the ball was in the circle, sure. But if the throw came from the catcher, I find it difficult to believe the LBR was in effect without further description of the play.

BTW, don't care about how loud or who is saying what, the coach is responsible here.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

When you say questionable, do you mean the umpire hesitated or that the ball was probably foul and the umpire pointed fair, or even worse, offered a verbal "fair"?

Pretty sure he means close/borderline fair, thought foul by coach

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

If the ball was in the circle, sure. But if the throw came from the catcher, I find it difficult to believe the LBR was in effect without further description of the play.

That's my doubt too, no LBR unless pitcher has the ball.

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

BTW, don't care about how loud or who is saying what, the coach is responsible here.

ditto

[xtremeump]

One other thing on this. The umpires could also take some responsibility in this.

This is a great quote, I like your whole quote but this stands out to me. We must wait untill all playing action has stopped and F1 has control of the ball in the circle. Great topic for the lower levels. Game Management, this is where you learn that. when you go pro like some posters you have no problems like this. Thank You

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by xtremeump

One other thing on this. The umpires could also take some responsibility in this.

This is a great quote, I like your whole quote but this stands out to me. We must wait untill all playing action has stopped and F1 has control of the ball in the circle. Great topic for the lower levels. Game Management, this is where you learn that. when you go pro like some posters you have no problems like this. Thank You

I don't agree. Only one person is responsible for that runner and to observe the play, umpire's call, defense and direct the runner(s) accordingly and it isn't the umpire

[outathm]

Originally Posted by xtremeump

One other thing on this. The umpires could also take some responsibility in this.

This is a great quote, I like your whole quote but this stands out to me. We must wait untill all playing action has stopped and F1 has control of the ball in the circle. Great topic for the lower levels. Game Management, this is where you learn that. when you go pro like some posters you have no problems like this. Thank You

I often tell other umpires that the teams have someone allowed to stand on the field of play to tell them what to do. We are not responsible for their actions. When a coach tells his player to return to the Plate, the umpire is not in any way responsible to tell her otherwise. When the coach tells a girl to steal, it is not my responsibility to tell her that she isn't fast enough.

I watched the play until the ball was in the circle and the runner returned to 1B. The runner took a roundabout route back to 1B, but at no time did she run out of the base line to avoid a tag, and she was not off the bag and not moving when the ball was in the circle. I cannot think of a way to get an out, no matter how hard I tried. Please trust me, in a 15-1 ball game in the third inning, I was trying to find a way to get an out!

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by outathm

I often tell other umpires that the teams have someone allowed to stand on the field of play to tell them what to do. We are not responsible for their actions. When a coach tells his player to return to the Plate, the umpire is not in any way responsible to tell her otherwise. When the coach tells a girl to steal, it is not my responsibility to tell her that she isn't fast enough.

I watched the play until the ball was in the circle and the runner returned to 1B. The runner took a roundabout route back to 1B, but at no time did she run out of the base line to avoid a tag, and she was not off the bag and not moving when the ball was in the circle. I cannot think of a way to get an out, no matter how hard I tried. Please trust me, in a 15-1 ball game in the third inning, I was trying to find a way to get an out!

OK, but you failed to explain the questions we have on this play.

1) What made the fair/foul call questionable?
2) How could the ball be both with F1 (LBR) and F2 (pickoff from catcher).