Wind During IFF

[Manny A]

So, my high school varsity game last night was a bit wild. What started out as a somewhat calm afternoon with temps near 60 turned into a veritable wind-tunnel test with temps dropping into the 40s and gusts probably 30-35 mph.

In the bottom of the fifth of what was a close 3-1 game, the home team scored 7 (yeah, they couldn't score that 8th run, so we had to play another). The visitors just couldn't get outs, probably because of the crazy conditions. The pitcher had trouble hitting the strike zone. Numerous players requested Time to get dust out of their eyes. There was a popup to F5 that started in foul territory, but when she touched it and muffed it, the ball had moved into fair territory. And then there was the popup that the defensive coach wanted me to rule IFF.

The bases were loaded, and the batter hit a fly ball behind first base. F4 moved toward the foul line to make the catch. Just before I started to make the IFF call, I literally saw the ball move towards the center of the field, thanks to a huge gust of wind. F4 tried to adjust to get to the ball, but she never came close. It landed where she normally played her position, and she was still about 10-15 feet or so from the ball. She was never able to retrieve the ball to make a play on anyone.

The coach requested Time to ask me why I didn't make the call. I responded that there was no way the catch could be made by anyone under ordinary effort. He argued that it was still catchable (not sure what his point was), and asked if wind affects an IFF determination. I told him that it did.

At least I know that's the case in baseball. But when I looked in the NFHS rulebook and casebook, I didn't see any mention of wind under 2-30. The casebook does have a play where a fielder loses the ball in the sun and cannot make the catch, and states that the IFF is still in effect. Similarly, baseball rules say the sun is not a factor.

So, do we take wind into account when making the IFF call?

[DUNDALKCHOPPER]

I consider wind.

[MD Longhorn]

The rulebook doesn't mention it, but it doesn't need to. You used the exact correct judgement - ordinary effort. And yes, that includes wind, ability and age of players, everything.

PS - a defensive coach asking for a free out on an IFF is NEVER going to get anywhere and this conversation's going to be short. The rule is not designed to give a defense an out they don't deserve --- it's designed to prevent a defense from letting one drop on purpose to get a double play... it's there to protect THE OFFENSE. No free out - never ever ever.

There's no chance a coach is going to argue to me that the rule, which is designed to stop a cheap double play, should be invoked on a play that they not only didn't get two outs... they didn't even get one.

[rbmartin]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

The rule is not designed to give a defense an out they don't deserve --- it's designed to prevent a defense from letting one drop on purpose to get a double play.

+1

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

No free out - never ever ever.

In my view if strong winds are present, better to wait until you are SURE the fielder is comfortably camped underneath it. Make the defense play ball.

[EsqUmp]

I've heard this said in the past:

Wind is a factor, the sun is not. Thoughts?

[shipwreck]

My 2 cents worth is this. A fielder cannot control the wind. They can take some precautions for the sun though. Sunglasses, visor, cap, using their glove to shield the sun. I have never used the sun in someones eyes to not call IFF rule. Dave

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by shipwreck

I have never used the sun in someones eyes to not call IFF rule. Dave

And per the NFHS casebook play I mentioned above, it's not appropriate anyway, so you're covered.

I just wanted to make sure wind is a factor. As I mentioned, that guidance is in writing in some of the baseball rulebooks and interpretations. I just don't recall seeing it in softball docs.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by EsqUmp

I've heard this said in the past:

Wind is a factor, the sun is not. Thoughts?

It's all a factor... the ONLY thing that matters is whether the umpire feels the fielder would be able to make the play with ordinary effort. Not sure why anyone would want to specifically exclude anything at all or differentiate between one factor's validity and another. Whoever told you this is inventing things for no reason..

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by shipwreck

My 2 cents worth is this. A fielder cannot control the wind. They can take some precautions for the sun though. Sunglasses, visor, cap, using their glove to shield the sun. I have never used the sun in someones eyes to not call IFF rule. Dave

I have. At least twice that still sticks in my memory. Both cases the ball was high and so was the sun. At the moment I'm trying to decide, the fielder(s) was shading their eyes and doing the "where did it go" routine. I did not call IFF in either case - it was not caught, and defense recorded no out.

[HugoTafurst]

Originally Posted by EsqUmp

I've heard this said in the past:

Wind is a factor, the sun is not. Thoughts?

The sun's location and effect is known and predictable, the effect of the wind (as in this case) was not.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by HugoTafurst

The sun's location and effect is known and predictable, the effect of the wind (as in this case) was not.

That may be true. But why would the truth of that have anything to do with whether a ball is catchable with ordinary effort? If the location of the sun and the ball are such that the ball is not going to be easy to catch, why would you not take that into account?

The only difference between sun and wind is that you, the umpire, knew in advance that the sun might be an issue, whereas the wind probably took you, the umpire, by surprise. But that shouldn't change our decision making process.

[tcannizzo]

Had one this past weekend. I was BU in C, PU called IFF at the top of the relatively high fly. At the time IFF was called, I thought the ball would land just a few feet to my left, but by the time it came down it landed about 10 feet directly behind 2B, where ball hit ground just out of F6's reach, probably 10 feet away from where I thought it would land.

The wind was definitely a factor, but the wind is so unpredictable, I don't know how to account for it. Wind can start and stop on a dime. And it can go both ways making a fly ball harder - or easier to catch.

I am inclined not to consider the wind, except in some TWP.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by tcannizzo

Had one this past weekend. I was BU in C, PU called IFF at the top of the relatively high fly. At the time IFF was called, I thought the ball would land just a few feet to my left, but by the time it came down it landed about 10 feet directly behind 2B, where ball hit ground just out of F6's reach, probably 10 feet away from where I thought it would land.

The wind was definitely a factor, but the wind is so unpredictable, I don't know how to account for it. Wind can start and stop on a dime. And it can go both ways making a fly ball harder - or easier to catch.

I am inclined not to consider the wind, except in some TWP.

And if F4 or F8 had been nearby where it descended; instead of F6, how would you have applied "ordinary effort"?

[tcannizzo]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

And if F4 or F8 had been nearby where it descended; instead of F6, how would you have applied "ordinary effort"?

Not sure I understand your question. Actually in this case, both F8 and F4 ended up being nearby. But I apply "ordinary effort" prior to the catch/no catch being made, not with the benefit of hindsight. In my sitch, this looked like a very easy play at the top of the fly ball.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by tcannizzo

Not sure I understand your question. Actually in this case, both F8 and F4 ended up being nearby. But I apply "ordinary effort" prior to the catch/no catch being made, not with the benefit of hindsight. In my sitch, this looked like a very easy play at the top of the fly ball.

I was wondering the same thing, actually.

The rules says it applies when an infielder CAN make the play with ordinary effort ... not that an infielder DOES make the play. If F6 can make this play, but F8 can too ... we still have IFF.