VHSL "uniforms"

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by Adam

Yes, the flag code disallows how it's generally used; unless one considers an officiating organization to be a "patriotic organization." It's a stretch.

But it's also unenforceable.

After 9/11, the US Flag could be found on virtually every athletic uniform being worn in the professional and amateur ranks. Nobody that I'm aware of filed a lawsuit claiming it was against the law.

I support any uniformed organization that wishes to display the Flag. But that's because I spent 30 years in the military.

The official ASA hat still has a small Flag on it, doesn't it?

Back on point, I'm not too happy that I now have to buy a specific hat and shirt to umpire high school games here. I already have three shirts that I've ironed on the VHSL patch that I'll have to essentially throw away. And what the heck was wrong with plain navy hats that I use for multiple organizations?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Manny A

After 9/11, the US Flag could be found on virtually every athletic uniform being worn in the professional and amateur ranks. Nobody that I'm aware of filed a lawsuit claiming it was against the law

Remember when people started with the antenna flags and then flying them off a window attachment? Now, do you remember how dirty they became and tattered?

You want to hold the flag up as a matter of respect and honor and patriotism, the first thing you should worry about is to applying that same respect and honor to that symbol. Attaching it to anything including an athletic uniform or hat or glove or whatever where it will become soiled or damaged is just as disrespectful as throwing it to the ground.

I support any uniformed organization that wishes to display the Flag. But that's because I spent 30 years in the military.

When I was in the military, the flag was not part of the uniform, nor were you allowed to attach it to any part of your uniform.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

When I was in the military, the flag was not part of the uniform, nor were you allowed to attach it to any part of your uniform.

It is now, at least in the Army for the camouflage uniform.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Manny A

It is now, at least in the Army for the camouflage uniform.

Of course, it is. It is a feel-good token for most people, but I still do not care for it on any uniform.

Clothes, including uniforms, get dirty especially those designed for working.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Of course, it is. It is a feel-good token for most people, but I still do not care for it on any uniform.

Clothes, including uniforms, get dirty especially those designed for working.

True. But historically, flags were used to lead and inspire combatants on the battlefields. And sports participants are combatants of sorts.

As you can probably tell, I do have US Flags on a number of my umpire shirts. In fact, I use the reverse US Flag on my right sleeve, which has been a source of discussion to some. I once had an older gentleman come up to me at the concession stand after I finished a LL baseball game. I assumed he was going to either ask me a question about a rule, or just give me the usual "Good game, Blue," comment that follows our games.

No, he accused me of improperly displaying the US Flag by wearing it backwards. I tried to convince him that it was appropriate to wear it that way on the uniform, because the field of stars are required to be closer to the heart. He said he used to be in the military and he'd never seen it displayed that way. I replied, "Sir, I still am in the military, and this is the Flag I wear on my work uniform every day."

[HugoTafurst]

Originally Posted by Manny A

(snip) I replied, "Sir, I still am in the military, and this is the Flag I wear on my work uniform every day."

Great answer.

FWIW, I tend to agree with Irishmafia. I was brought up thinking the flag was special and to be treated almost as a holy object.

I still get uncomfortable when I see the ragged flags on antennas, or the unlit flags at night or those left up in the rain and especially the 23 torn and tattered flags surrounding the used car lot.

I also tend to think wearing them on any and everything not related to the US Government cheapens the flag.

BUT that's just my opinion.... I understand that some who wear the flag (despite the code) have good intentions.

Now, don't ask me my opinion of people hollaring, whistling and shouting during the last 8 measures of the Star Spangled Banner!!!

[Skahtboi]

Originally Posted by Manny A

True. But historically, flags were used to lead and inspire combatants on the battlefields. And sports participants are combatants of sorts.

As you can probably tell, I do have US Flags on a number of my umpire shirts. In fact, I use the reverse US Flag on my right sleeve, which has been a source of discussion to some. I once had an older gentleman come up to me at the concession stand after I finished a LL baseball game. I assumed he was going to either ask me a question about a rule, or just give me the usual "Good game, Blue," comment that follows our games.

No, he accused me of improperly displaying the US Flag by wearing it backwards. I tried to convince him that it was appropriate to wear it that way on the uniform, because the field of stars are required to be closer to the heart. He said he used to be in the military and he'd never seen it displayed that way. I replied, "Sir, I still am in the military, and this is the Flag I wear on my work uniform every day."

For the record, from the United States Flag Code: "(j) No part of the flag should ever be used as a costume or athletic uniform. However, a flag patch may be affixed to the uniform of military personnel, firemen, policemen, and members of patriotic organizations."

This is the reason I have never used a flag patch on my umpire uniform. We do not meet those requirements as sports officials. The blatant misuse of the flag by such organizations as ASA does not make it okay. It merely shows a lack of knowledge concerning the proper way to display a flag.

[EsqUmp]

Originally Posted by Skahtboi

For the record, from the United States Flag Code: "(j) No part of the flag should ever be used as a costume or athletic uniform. However, a flag patch may be affixed to the uniform of military personnel, firemen, policemen, and members of patriotic organizations."

This is the reason I have never used a flag patch on my umpire uniform. We do not meet those requirements as sports officials. The blatant misuse of the flag by such organizations as ASA does not make it okay. It merely shows a lack of knowledge concerning the proper way to display a flag.

"The flag should never be used as a costume or athletic uniform" refers to actual material designed to be work as a costume or uniform, not a patch on the uniform. In other words, you can't drape yourself in a flag like you're going to a toga party.

The fact that it says that the flag may be affixed to certain uniforms doesn't mean that it can't be affixed to others.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Skahtboi

For the record, from the United States Flag Code: "(j) No part of the flag should ever be used as a costume or athletic uniform. However, a flag patch may be affixed to the uniform of military personnel, firemen, policemen, and members of patriotic organizations."

This is the reason I have never used a flag patch on my umpire uniform. We do not meet those requirements as sports officials. The blatant misuse of the flag by such organizations as ASA does not make it okay. It merely shows a lack of knowledge concerning the proper way to display a flag.

But you ran right past the important paragraph:

(e) The flag should never be fastened, displayed, used, or stored in such a manner as to permit it to be easily torn, soiled, or damaged in any way.

There is not a spot on an athletic uniform that cannot be soiled or damaged, even that of an official.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Skahtboi

For the record, from the United States Flag Code: "(j) No part of the flag should ever be used as a costume or athletic uniform. However, a flag patch may be affixed to the uniform of military personnel, firemen, policemen, and members of patriotic organizations."

This is the reason I have never used a flag patch on my umpire uniform. We do not meet those requirements as sports officials. The blatant misuse of the flag by such organizations as ASA does not make it okay. It merely shows a lack of knowledge concerning the proper way to display a flag.

I agree with you 1,000%.

MTD, Sr.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by Skahtboi

The blatant misuse of the flag by such organizations as ASA does not make it okay. It merely shows a lack of knowledge concerning the proper way to display a flag.

Conversely, perhaps they are perfectly aware of the criteria in the Flag code, and yet they decide that pride and patriotism outweighs the minor indiscretion. I personally find no fault in that.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Manny A

After 9/11, the US Flag could be found on virtually every athletic uniform being worn in the professional and amateur ranks. Nobody that I'm aware of filed a lawsuit claiming it was against the law.

I support any uniformed organization that wishes to display the Flag. But that's because I spent 30 years in the military.

The official ASA hat still has a small Flag on it, doesn't it?

Back on point, I'm not too happy that I now have to buy a specific hat and shirt to umpire high school games here. I already have three shirts that I've ironed on the VHSL patch that I'll have to essentially throw away. And what the heck was wrong with plain navy hats that I use for multiple organizations?

I do know an organization (a rather large one) that I used to belong to that insisted we all get new apparel with the flag on the sleeve. A few refused, were threatened, and then when those few (most of whom were ex-military) explained why, trotted out the flag code, and threatened to sue, the organization backed down.

(And note, former organization ... I didn't mention your name!!!! )

[varefump]

Don't know how this thread morphed into two parts, but here's my two cents on both.

As for the uniform shirts, VHSL members get a 20% discount on the Cliff Keen merchandise. That's still $40 a shirt + tax + shipping, or about $50 each.

Being in three officiating groups (volleyball, basketball, and softball), I currently own 16 official shirts in all those groups. If I just buy two new shirts in each sport, that's $240 that I shouldn't have to spend since all my shirts are in excellent condition.

Not sure yet if the softball caps will be mandatory, but we can add in another $15 each for those.

I think the VHSL's 'association' with Cliff Keen is just a money-making venture for the VHSL. They entered into this agreement not realizing that the almost 3000 officials in Virginia are going to have to fork out nearly a quarter of a million dollars to re-outfit themselves. Not sure what percentage of that money will go to Charlottesville, but I'll bet it's not a small amount.

I'm hoping the local associations will get together and boycott this mandated policy before it becomes effective in the 2014-15 school year. The VHSL has stipulated that all STATE-LEVEL playoff officials must wear these new shirts starting next school year. So some of our people will have to purchase them while others do not.

Now for part two, our association has worn the American flag on the back of our softball shirts for years to show our pride in our country. Not one person has objected to this policy. The flag patch itself tends to hold up better than the shirt, so I've never had a problem with the patch getting soiled or ragged. IMHO, I think it's a great way to display your patriotism. I've yet to hear a TV or radio commentator make any negative comment on an official who's wearing the flag.

God bless the USA!

[SWFLguy]

Funny that the flag patch got into this thread. There is a guy in our local association who wears a "camo-version" of the flag on his shirts.

[HugoTafurst]

Originally Posted by SWFLguy

Funny that the flag patch got into this thread. There is a guy in our local association who wears a "camo-version" of the flag on his shirts.

Does he enforce uniform violations on players as required by the rules org. he working?