VHSL "uniforms"

[Skahtboi]

Originally Posted by Manny A

True. But historically, flags were used to lead and inspire combatants on the battlefields. And sports participants are combatants of sorts.

As you can probably tell, I do have US Flags on a number of my umpire shirts. In fact, I use the reverse US Flag on my right sleeve, which has been a source of discussion to some. I once had an older gentleman come up to me at the concession stand after I finished a LL baseball game. I assumed he was going to either ask me a question about a rule, or just give me the usual "Good game, Blue," comment that follows our games.

No, he accused me of improperly displaying the US Flag by wearing it backwards. I tried to convince him that it was appropriate to wear it that way on the uniform, because the field of stars are required to be closer to the heart. He said he used to be in the military and he'd never seen it displayed that way. I replied, "Sir, I still am in the military, and this is the Flag I wear on my work uniform every day."

For the record, from the United States Flag Code: "(j) No part of the flag should ever be used as a costume or athletic uniform. However, a flag patch may be affixed to the uniform of military personnel, firemen, policemen, and members of patriotic organizations."

This is the reason I have never used a flag patch on my umpire uniform. We do not meet those requirements as sports officials. The blatant misuse of the flag by such organizations as ASA does not make it okay. It merely shows a lack of knowledge concerning the proper way to display a flag.

[EsqUmp]

Originally Posted by Skahtboi

For the record, from the United States Flag Code: "(j) No part of the flag should ever be used as a costume or athletic uniform. However, a flag patch may be affixed to the uniform of military personnel, firemen, policemen, and members of patriotic organizations."

This is the reason I have never used a flag patch on my umpire uniform. We do not meet those requirements as sports officials. The blatant misuse of the flag by such organizations as ASA does not make it okay. It merely shows a lack of knowledge concerning the proper way to display a flag.

"The flag should never be used as a costume or athletic uniform" refers to actual material designed to be work as a costume or uniform, not a patch on the uniform. In other words, you can't drape yourself in a flag like you're going to a toga party.

The fact that it says that the flag may be affixed to certain uniforms doesn't mean that it can't be affixed to others.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Skahtboi

For the record, from the United States Flag Code: "(j) No part of the flag should ever be used as a costume or athletic uniform. However, a flag patch may be affixed to the uniform of military personnel, firemen, policemen, and members of patriotic organizations."

This is the reason I have never used a flag patch on my umpire uniform. We do not meet those requirements as sports officials. The blatant misuse of the flag by such organizations as ASA does not make it okay. It merely shows a lack of knowledge concerning the proper way to display a flag.

But you ran right past the important paragraph:

(e) The flag should never be fastened, displayed, used, or stored in such a manner as to permit it to be easily torn, soiled, or damaged in any way.

There is not a spot on an athletic uniform that cannot be soiled or damaged, even that of an official.

[Skahtboi]

Originally Posted by EsqUmp

"The flag should never be used as a costume or athletic uniform" refers to actual material designed to be work as a costume or uniform, not a patch on the uniform. In other words, you can't drape yourself in a flag like you're going to a toga party.

The fact that it says that the flag may be affixed to certain uniforms doesn't mean that it can't be affixed to others.

Don't believe that sports officials organizations qualify as "military, firemen, policemen or a patriotic organization."

[Skahtboi]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

But you ran right past the important paragraph:

(e) The flag should never be fastened, displayed, used, or stored in such a manner as to permit it to be easily torn, soiled, or damaged in any way.

There is not a spot on an athletic uniform that cannot be soiled or damaged, even that of an official.

Yeah, I skipped that because you had already thoroughly covered that issue, IMO.

[Publius]

I wish the ideals the flag is supposed to represent commanded even half the respect the icon seems to get.

[EsqUmp]

Originally Posted by Skahtboi

Don't believe that sports officials organizations qualify as "military, firemen, policemen or a patriotic organization."

You're still not reading correctly. The fact that it says that the flag can be worn on a certain item doesn't prohibit wearing it on other items.

It isn't an "including, but limited to" sentence. If it was, it would say, "including, but limited to..."

[CecilOne]

Some of you are taking one phrase out of context.
"(j) No part of the flag should ever be used as a costume or athletic uniform. However, a flag patch may be affixed to the uniform of military personnel, firemen, policemen, and members of patriotic organizations."

The "However" means that these are the only exceptions.

And "(e) The flag should never be fastened, displayed, used, or stored in such a manner as to permit it to be easily torn, soiled, or damaged in any way. " confirms the reason for not wearing the flag in a fabric type material.

Of course, there are many violations of the Flag Code everyday, but maybe we can start with this controllable one.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by EsqUmp

You're still not reading correctly. The fact that it says that the flag can be worn on a certain item doesn't prohibit wearing it on other items.

It isn't an "including, but limited to" sentence. If it was, it would say, "including, but limited to..."

Disagree. The sentence is specific to the uniform of members of a specific uniformed organizations:

However, a flag patch may be affixed to the uniform of military personnel, firemen, policemen, and members of patriotic organizations.

If it was meant to be presented in a non-exclusive manner (and the wording isn't that restrictive as it is), it should have read to show these organizations/avocations as examples. I see no such wording included.

There doesn't seem to be any part of the paragraph that allows for interpretation other than what qualifies as a member of the four components offered: military personnel, firemen, policemen or a patriotic organization. The final one most likely being the most contentious of the group.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

But you ran right past the important paragraph:

(e) The flag should never be fastened, displayed, used, or stored in such a manner as to permit it to be easily torn, soiled, or damaged in any way.

There is not a spot on an athletic uniform that cannot be soiled or damaged, even that of an official.

And yet, military personnel and firemen are cited as people who can wear flag patches. So, who exposes those patches to adverse conditions more, sports officials or firemen?

Serious question: For those of you who adamantly oppose the Flag patch on umpire uniforms, how many of you do ASA ball, and have you removed the Flag off of the hat or gotten a customized ASA hat that doesn't have the Flag on it?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Manny A

And yet, military personnel and firemen are cited as people who can wear flag patches. So, who exposes those patches to adverse conditions more, sports officials or firemen?

I never said I agree with everything. IMO, the flag is a flag and not a decoration on ANY clothing or apparel regardless of its purpose or who is wearing it.

Serious question: For those of you who adamantly oppose the Flag patch on umpire uniforms, how many of you do ASA ball, and have you removed the Flag off of the hat or gotten a customized ASA hat that doesn't have the Flag on it?

My discussion here is based on what is written and what I believe it means. Obviously, others do not agree and that is okay. I'm not so adamant that I don't understand when I'm in someone else's domain, I play by their rules or go home.

It is not unusual to see me wearing an ASA hat without a flag locally. When I work Championship Play, I change hats often, keeping what sweat there may be to a minimum and the hat as clean as possible. At the end of the game/day, the hat is folded and stored properly after cleaning.

A few years back, an umpire showed up at a national with his ASA shirts adorned with a flag on each sleeve. He was local and was a little disturbed when I informed him that he could not work in those shirts. Turns out that every shirt in his closet had at least two flags on them. He had to borrow his son's (also an umpire) shirts.

I think that is another problem some people have. They have appropriated the adjective "uniform" as a noun.

[Skahtboi]

Originally Posted by EsqUmp

You're still not reading correctly. The fact that it says that the flag can be worn on a certain item doesn't prohibit wearing it on other items.

It isn't an "including, but limited to" sentence. If it was, it would say, "including, but limited to..."

Read above. This has already be clarified for you by others.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Skahtboi

For the record, from the United States Flag Code: "(j) No part of the flag should ever be used as a costume or athletic uniform. However, a flag patch may be affixed to the uniform of military personnel, firemen, policemen, and members of patriotic organizations."

This is the reason I have never used a flag patch on my umpire uniform. We do not meet those requirements as sports officials. The blatant misuse of the flag by such organizations as ASA does not make it okay. It merely shows a lack of knowledge concerning the proper way to display a flag.

I agree with you 1,000%.

MTD, Sr.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by Skahtboi

The blatant misuse of the flag by such organizations as ASA does not make it okay. It merely shows a lack of knowledge concerning the proper way to display a flag.

Conversely, perhaps they are perfectly aware of the criteria in the Flag code, and yet they decide that pride and patriotism outweighs the minor indiscretion. I personally find no fault in that.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Manny A

Conversely, perhaps they are perfectly aware of the criteria in the Flag code, and yet they decide that pride and patriotism outweighs the minor indiscretion. I personally find no fault in that.

Sort of like a player just making a quick jerk of a tag without the ball to try and make the runner slide. After all, it is only a minor violation and may save the game. Of maybe just not giving you

"Pride" and "Patriotism" are convenient references to justify a lot of things in today's world. They are often very loosely used by people to justify actions that are neither. I wonder how many would be proud enough to be a patriot if needed to serve in the military during wartime?