ASA - Infield Fly Rule

[HugoTafurst]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Not true. If BU puts his hand up (especially on a borderline fly that may or may not be too deep to be easily caught), he's telling me he thinks the ball is going to be shallow enough to be easily caught. He's sharing information. He's not making a call.

There's gonna be a storm if BU holds up his hand in what looks like an IF signal, Offense holds base due to the signal, PU doesn't make the call and multiple outs occur......

[Tru_in_Blu]

Originally Posted by HugoTafurst

There's gonna be a storm if BU holds up his hand in what looks like an IF signal, Offense holds base due to the signal, PU doesn't make the call and multiple outs occur......

I'm trying to recall which clinic I was at [perhaps NFHS] where they told us the call belongs to the PU. The BU can raise his hand in a POINTING manner so as to indicate to the PU the possibility of the IF.

The question was brought up about coaches questioning this as calling the batter out, and we were instructed to tell the coach that it was not an out call but an assist to our partner that we have potential for IF.

I was looking up IF mechanics this past weekend and was looking for where it says the IF must be verbalized. About the only thing I found was in the description of an IF, and what happens when it's declared.

Must we call it, or is it optional like some of my partners believe? Again, perhaps because of cross-pollination of various affiliations, including NCAA.

[BretMan]

There are some softball umpire manuals that say the Infield Fly call can be made by either umpire.

There are others that don't spell out if the responsibility belongs to either one or both.

ASA's manual does happen to say that this is the plate umpire's call.

Did you mention to your partner that baseball is a different sport and that softball might have some different mechanics?

[rwest]

Originally Posted by BretMan

There are some softball umpire manuals that say the Infield Fly call can be made by either umpire.

There are others that don't spell out if the responsibility belongs to either one or both.

ASA's manual does happen to say that this is the plate umpire's call.

Did you mention to your partner that baseball is a different sport and that softball might have some different mechanics?

Do you have the page number where it says the PU has the call?

[Chess Ref]

Originally Posted by rwest

Do you have the page number where it says the PU has the call?

ASA 2012 Umpire Manual---page 244.

[rwest]

Originally Posted by HugoTafurst

There's gonna be a storm if BU holds up his hand in what looks like an IF signal, Offense holds base due to the signal, PU doesn't make the call and multiple outs occur......

Two Points.

1. Teams should know the situation and their responsibilities. They should not be looking at the BU to see if his hand is up. They should be listening for a verbal.

2. If the PU/BU did not make the IFF call and they should have, this is correctable in ASA and FED. I don't know about NCAA.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by HugoTafurst

There's gonna be a storm if BU holds up his hand in what looks like an IF signal, Offense holds base due to the signal, PU doesn't make the call and multiple outs occur......

Maybe what you're stating is regional. The assumption your teams seem to be making is certainly not in play here. If IFF is not called VERBALLY by one of the umpires, then the offense should assume the judgement of the umpire(s) is that it's not an IFF. If it turns out the umpires simply failed to call it when they should have (and in THEIR judgement they should have), it's fixable.

[HugoTafurst]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Maybe what you're stating is regional. The assumption your teams seem to be making is certainly not in play here. If IFF is not called VERBALLY by one of the umpires, then the offense should assume the judgement of the umpire(s) is that it's not an IFF. If it turns out the umpires simply failed to call it when they should have (and in THEIR judgement they should have), it's fixable.

Maybe - I'll ask around

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Maybe what you're stating is regional. The assumption your teams seem to be making is certainly not in play here. If IFF is not called VERBALLY by one of the umpires, then the offense should assume the judgement of the umpire(s) is that it's not an IFF. If it turns out the umpires simply failed to call it when they should have (and in THEIR judgement they should have), it's fixable.

I do agree with the BU pointing and I do that.

However, don't we use signals because everyone might not hear us; especially with all yelling at the fielders and 2 runners and a BR?

[HugoTafurst]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

I do agree with the BU pointing and I do that.

However, don't we use signals because everyone might not hear us; especially with all yelling at the fielders and 2 runners and a BR?

Out of curiosity, how often has the BU pointed and the PU not called the IFR (assuming the situation is correct).
Not trying to be argumentative, just curious.

Never too old to learn (and boy sometimes I feel old), but I always treated the IFR as any umpires call. Not only that, but somewhere along the line, I thought it was a call that was to be (or could be) echoed by other umpires (unlike a foul.. )
I've never heard a post game comment when I called it as a BU.

[Andy]

Originally Posted by HugoTafurst

Out of curiosity, how often has the BU pointed and the PU not called the IFR (assuming the situation is correct).
Not trying to be argumentative, just curious.

Never too old to learn (and boy sometimes I feel old), but I always treated the IFR as any umpires call. Not only that, but somewhere along the line, I thought it was a call that was to be (or could be) echoed by other umpires (unlike a foul.. )
I've never heard a post game comment when I called it as a BU.

It has happened to me twice in the last few months. In both cases, I was BU.

1. JC game, cold and very windy. IFF situation, high pop fly hit to F6, she takes a step or two backward, and catches the ball. Because of the high winds, I did hesitate before I pointed up. My PU partner did not call the IFF. After the catch, he loudly announces..."There is no such thing as ordinary effort today" referring to the windy conditions.

2. Men's FP, IFF situation, high pop fly hit toward F6. When the ball was hit, I saw F6 playing a bit deeper than normal and even though the ball would have landed past him, I judged that he only had to back up a bit to make the play, so I pointed upward. My PU partner did not call the IFF. We talk about it later...what I didn't see was that F6 misjudged the ball and basically did about two and half twists trying to find and get under the ball. He did end up catching it though.

In both cases, I was working with very good and very experienced partners.

Thoughts?

[Chess Ref]

Originally Posted by Andy

It has happened to me twice in the last few months. In both cases, I was BU.

1. JC game, cold and very windy. IFF situation, high pop fly hit to F6, she takes a step or two backward, and catches the ball. Because of the high winds, I did hesitate before I pointed up. My PU partner did not call the IFF. After the catch, he loudly announces..."There is no such thing as ordinary effort today" referring to the windy conditions.

2. Men's FP, IFF situation, high pop fly hit toward F6. When the ball was hit, I saw F6 playing a bit deeper than normal and even though the ball would have landed past him, I judged that he only had to back up a bit to make the play, so I pointed upward. My PU partner did not call the IFF. We talk about it later...what I didn't see was that F6 misjudged the ball and basically did about two and half twists trying to find and get under the ball. He did end up catching it though.

In both cases, I was working with very good and very experienced partners.

Thoughts?

1. I think that is a little silly. I, too, have experienced some nice Arizona wind blasts in my day. But what if the wind eases up in the later inninngs-does he now announce "ordinary effort" is in play today ?

2. Vaguely similar to what my opening thread was about, except I was the PU. BU in my game -who called IFF, very quietly, wanted me to honor his call. I didn't think I should....

Is there anywhere in the book or somewhere that says BU can also make that call? Because I only found the reference on page 244. PU has the respnsibility for call.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Chess Ref

Is there anywhere in the book or somewhere that says BU can also make that call? Because I only found the reference on page 244. PU has the respnsibility for call.

Is there anywhere that says BU can make the out call on a line drive to shortstop? No... but what do you do if he DOES make that call, and you see it differently?

I'd treat the OP the same way.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by HugoTafurst

Out of curiosity, how often has the BU pointed and the PU not called the IFR (assuming the situation is correct).
Not trying to be argumentative, just curious..

Couple of times a year, perhaps. BU, when pointing, is merely giving help on depth (it's often a LOT easier to see how deep the ball is going to be from B or C than from the plate). PU still has to decide if it should be caught with ordinary effort. I remember one that was to PITCHER that BU pointed up for me and I didn't call. Why? Because when I looked at pitcher I saw she had looked up, then back down with deer-in-the-headlights eyes and her hands apart as if to say, "Where did it go?" It landed untouched and everyone advanced rather easily (no, no one helped her or went after the ball as well).

[Andy]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Couple of times a year, perhaps. BU, when pointing, is merely giving help on depth (it's often a LOT easier to see how deep the ball is going to be from B or C than from the plate). PU still has to decide if it should be caught with ordinary effort. I remember one that was to PITCHER that BU pointed up for me and I didn't call. Why? Because when I looked at pitcher I saw she had looked up, then back down with deer-in-the-headlights eyes and her hands apart as if to say, "Where did it go?" It landed untouched and everyone advanced rather easily (no, no one helped her or went after the ball as well).

This relates to my situation #2 that I posted. It sounds as if this ball COULD HAVE BEEN caught with ordinary effort by an infielder.

Does the fact that she lost it in the sun or, in my play, F6 made it harder than it had to be, negate the fact that it could have been caught with ordinary effort? I realize that conditions like wind can have a definite effect on what is considered ordinary effort and that the skill level of the player is taken into account as well.