Appeal goes wrong

[EsqUmp]

Originally Posted by MrRabbit

So what you are saying that the procedure listed on page 259 of the 2012 Umpires Manual for this situation is incorrect?

What I am saying is that is not the best mechanic, despite what ASA says.

On an obvious can of corn to right of center, what advantage is there for the base umpire to come inside the diamond? The elements are all already in front of the umpire. Even if you use the questionable ASA mechanic of having the base umpire take the sole runner at 2nd to 3rd on the tag-up, the base umpire is better off staying outside the diamond so as to not have the cut off throw the ball by the umpire's head when trying to get R2 going to 3rd.

[Jake26]

Originally Posted by EsqUmp

... Even if you use the questionable ASA mechanic of having the base umpire take the sole runner at 2nd to 3rd on the tag-up, ...

The BU does not have this runner going to 3rd - the PU does.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by Jake26

The BU does not have this runner going to 3rd - the PU does.

How do you figure? If the catch is made then the lone runner is the last runner and the last runner belongs to BU.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by youngump

How do you figure? If the catch is made then the lone runner is the last runner and the last runner belongs to BU.

as above:

The base umpire that does not go out for the catch is responsible for the tag up at 2B and any play at 2B.

PU is responsible for the catch, play at 3B and/or home

[IRISHMAFIA]

With a runner on 2B only, the BU has the tag-up and the runner to 3B

QUESTION: In the Two Umpire System, Fast Pitch or Slow Pitch, when does the base umpire cover 3B?
ANSWER: There are four times the base umpire has responsibility for a play at third base. They are:
1. on the batter-runner on a triple with no runners on base.
2. on the last runner into third base.
3. on a lone runner on fly ball advancement.
4. on any return throw from the plate area or a cut-off by a player.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

as above:

The base umpire that does not go out for the catch is responsible for the tag up at 2B and any play at 2B.

PU is responsible for the catch, play at 3B and/or home

Cecil, I know you know this. Brainfart? Not enough coffee yet?

[Jake26]

Originally Posted by youngump

How do you figure? If the catch is made then the lone runner is the last runner and the last runner belongs to BU.

From pages 258-259 of the 2012 ASA Umpires Manual:

Runner on Second Base Only - Fast Pitch

Fly Ball to the Outfield:

P - ... Responsible for ... any play on the lead runner at 3B ... . [Italics added.]

B - ... Responsible for the tag up at 2B, any play at 1B or 2B and the last runner to 3B.

In this scenario, the "last runner" is (I assume) the batter-runner after a dropped fly ball.

I do not know where Irish is getting the information offered in his post following yours.

[Crabby_Bob]

Originally Posted by Jake26

From pages 258-259 of the 2012 ASA Umpires Manual:

Runner on Second Base Only - Fast Pitch

Fly Ball to the Outfield:

P - ... Responsible for ... any play on the lead runner at 3B ... . [Italics added.]

B - ... Responsible for the tag up at 2B, any play at 1B or 2B and the last runner to 3B.

In this scenario, the "last runner" is (I assume) the batter-runner after a dropped fly ball.

I do not know where Irish is getting the information offered in his post following yours.

[Edit] The mechanics section has been re-written: See Here.

[EsqUmp]

Originally Posted by Jake26

From pages 258-259 of the 2012 ASA Umpires Manual:

Runner on Second Base Only - Fast Pitch

Fly Ball to the Outfield:

P - ... Responsible for ... any play on the lead runner at 3B ... . [Italics added.]

B - ... Responsible for the tag up at 2B, any play at 1B or 2B and the last runner to 3B.

There have been some issues with ASA getting the manual consistent with the DVD. The interpretation has been that in order for there to be a "lead runner" there must also be a "trail runner." When there is only one runner, there is, by definition, neither a "trail" nor a "lead."


REGARDLESS of who (plate or base) takes the call at 3rd, what is the advantage to the base umpire coming inside the diamond on a routine pop up to right of center field? It actually cuts down the angle/peripheral to see both the runner and the catch. If the base umpire does take R2 to 3rd base, it also puts him in a position where he has to look over his shoulder to see the ball (either thrown directly to 3rd base by the outfielder or by the cutoff) and puts him in the line of fire for the actual play at 3rd. Should R2 get in a rundown, you'll then also have two umpires on the inside of the rundown, rather than boxing R2.

Some may illogically argue "but what if the ball falls and there is a play on BR at 1st base?" You ought to be able to judge the level of play. If the ball does fall, the play isn't going to 1st base anyway. The play is going to 3rd base. If for some godforsaken reason it does go to 1st, who cares? R2 is going to 3rd, so let her pass and then cut in the infield if necessary.

The best thing to do is open up, turn toward the outfield and watch the play and runner. NOT sprint into the infield in order to do the same exact thing and have a worse peripheral and a worse position for a call at 3rd (assuming the base ump takes R2 to 3rd).

[AtlUmpSteve]

Just wondering, at the risk of offending someone with an apparent personal agenda ....

Has anyone ever seen a routine can of corn drop? Sun, wind, nonchalant outfielder, any reason at all?

If so, on the stated play, who notes if BR touched first, is obstructed rounding that bag, possibly advancing to 2nd, or perhaps subject to a throwback to first? I suppose that all could be done in catch-up mode while standing and watching from the outside behind F6. But my preference (and assumably of those that write umpire manuals) is for the BU to be proactive, come inside where he can adequately see the tag at 2nd, and easily pick up the only next play that might happen.

The best clinician ever (EA) noted her philosophies in the early NCAA manuals, as well as her longstanding website. She notes that umpiring is a series of compromises, and that the two umpire system requires more compromises. She also puts a premium on deciding the best position for any play by considering what possible NEXT play may be necessary, not just the current play.

The basic mechanics stated cover every possible situation on this play, as effectively as possible. BU gets the tag, play back to 2nd, and responsible for BR/trail if the ball drops. PU has lead/lone runner into 3rd, then to home if necessary.

Go ahead and hate on the mechanics; when you are still standing behind F6, your NCAA evaluator will be writing it up, too.

[MrRabbit]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

Just wondering, at the risk of offending someone with an apparent personal agenda ....

Has anyone ever seen a routine can of corn drop? Sun, wind, nonchalant outfielder, any reason at all?

If so, on the stated play, who notes if BR touched first, is obstructed rounding that bag, possibly advancing to 2nd, or perhaps subject to a throwback to first? I suppose that all could be done in catch-up mode while standing and watching from the outside behind F6. But my preference (and assumably of those that write umpire manuals) is for the BU to be proactive, come inside where he can adequately see the tag at 2nd, and easily pick up the only next play that might happen.

The best clinician ever (EA) noted her philosophies in the early NCAA manuals, as well as her longstanding website. She notes that umpiring is a series of compromises, and that the two umpire system requires more compromises. She also puts a premium on deciding the best position for any play by considering what possible NEXT play may be necessary, not just the current play.

The basic mechanics stated cover every possible situation on this play, as effectively as possible. BU gets the tag, play back to 2nd, and responsible for BR/trail if the ball drops. PU has lead/lone runner into 3rd, then to home if necessary.

Go ahead and hate on the mechanics; when you are still standing behind F6, your NCAA evaluator will be writing it up, too.

Would love to be a fly on the wall for the conversations between this umpire and the evaluators.

[umpire12]

Originally Posted by EsqUmp

There have been some issues with ASA getting the manual consistent with the DVD. The interpretation has been that in order for there to be a "lead runner" there must also be a "trail runner." When there is only one runner, there is, by definition, neither a "trail" nor a "lead."


REGARDLESS of who (plate or base) takes the call at 3rd, what is the advantage to the base umpire coming inside the diamond on a routine pop up to right of center field? It actually cuts down the angle/peripheral to see both the runner and the catch. If the base umpire does take R2 to 3rd base, it also puts him in a position where he has to look over his shoulder to see the ball (either thrown directly to 3rd base by the outfielder or by the cutoff) and puts him in the line of fire for the actual play at 3rd. Should R2 get in a rundown, you'll then also have two umpires on the inside of the rundown, rather than boxing R2.

Some may illogically argue "but what if the ball falls and there is a play on BR at 1st base?" You ought to be able to judge the level of play. If the ball does fall, the play isn't going to 1st base anyway. The play is going to 3rd base. If for some godforsaken reason it does go to 1st, who cares? R2 is going to 3rd, so let her pass and then cut in the infield if necessary.

The best thing to do is open up, turn toward the outfield and watch the play and runner. NOT sprint into the infield in order to do the same exact thing and have a worse peripheral and a worse position for a call at 3rd (assuming the base ump takes R2 to 3rd).

Geez!!!...doesnt this make the most sense of anything posted on this thread?..instead of dismissing it and routinely trying to disparage this mechanic you should open your eyes and ears. i think if you keep your mind open, you will find that not only is this set of mechanics that Esq guy is presenting to you is not only better for umpires in general but that ,in fact, it just makes better sense

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by EsqUmp

The best thing to do is open up, turn toward the outfield and watch the play and runner. NOT sprint into the infield in order to do the same exact thing and have a worse peripheral and a worse position for a call at 3rd (assuming the base ump takes R2 to 3rd).

Honestly, unless the fly ball is right on the first base foul line, your peripheral vision should EASILY be able to pick up the catch (or first touch) and the runner at 2nd. Also, if the ball is to RCF, getting out of the way of the throw to third is a matter of one or two steps - something we've all done many many times. The only valid point you really made here was the rundown possibility, but I find that possibility to be far less likely than the ball dropping and your proximity to first base mattering.

That said, neither spot is a disaster, and both require awareness and reacting to the play - something that should be easy for anyone with more than a year or two of experience. Given that neither spot is a problem, and one spot is superior more frequently than the other - and the manual tells us to go to that one spot ... I see no reason not to go to that spot.

[umpire12]

"and the manual tells us to go to that one spot"

perhaps the manual youre reading isnt the best for umpires?

[youngump]

Originally Posted by Jake26

From pages 258-259 of the 2012 ASA Umpires Manual:

Runner on Second Base Only - Fast Pitch

Fly Ball to the Outfield:

P - ... Responsible for ... any play on the lead runner at 3B ... . [Italics added.]

B - ... Responsible for the tag up at 2B, any play at 1B or 2B and the last runner to 3B.

In this scenario, the "last runner" is (I assume) the batter-runner after a dropped fly ball.

I do not know where Irish is getting the information offered in his post following yours.

If the ball is dropped then the call at 3rd belongs to the PU. That wasn't the OP.

(Edit to add: ) BTW, the lone runner tag up from second was on the ASA test this year.