Appeal goes wrong

[Coach007]

Runner on 2nd, batter hits long fly ball to centre right caught by the right fielder - batter out. Runner at 2nd clearly leaves before the ball is first touched and moves on to 3rd. Fielder throws ball back to 2nd. Second baseman stands on 2nd with the ball and looks at base umpire who after several seconds gives the safe sign.
An appeal was made and lost. Could I have appealed an appeal given the FACT that the runner absolutely did not tag-up. The wrong call was made but never got corrected. What went wrong?
After the game I asked the base umpire why he didn't call the runner out since he did not tag-up. Said he didn't see the play(runner tagging or not tagging) therefor was unable to make an out call. Ask as to why he did not see it indicated it was not his responsiblity for that call as he was moving infield to watch the batter-runner touch 1st base in case there was no catch; why not ask partner for help - he couldn't confer with partner since it was a live ball appeal rather than a dead ball appeal.
Whose call was it? Did the base umpire handle the appeal correctly whether or not it was or wasn't his call?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Coach007

Runner on 2nd, batter hits long fly ball to centre right caught by the right fielder - batter out. Runner at 2nd clearly leaves before the ball is first touched and moves on to 3rd. Fielder throws ball back to 2nd. Second baseman stands on 2nd with the ball and looks at base umpire who after several seconds gives the safe sign.
An appeal was made and lost. Could I have appealed an appeal given the FACT that the runner absolutely did not tag-up. The wrong call was made but never got corrected. What went wrong?
After the game I asked the base umpire why he didn't call the runner out since he did not tag-up. Said he didn't see the play(runner tagging or not tagging) therefor was unable to make an out call. Ask as to why he did not see it indicated it was not his responsiblity for that call as he was moving infield to watch the batter-runner touch 1st base in case there was no catch; why not ask partner for help - he couldn't confer with partner since it was a live ball appeal rather than a dead ball appeal.
Whose call was it? Did the base umpire handle the appeal correctly whether or not it was or wasn't his call?

FP, SP, ORG? BTW, it isn't a fact until the umpire says it is.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Coach007

Runner on 2nd, batter hits long fly ball to centre right caught by the right fielder - batter out. Runner at 2nd clearly leaves before the ball is first touched and moves on to 3rd. Fielder throws ball back to 2nd. Second baseman stands on 2nd with the ball and looks at base umpire who after several seconds gives the safe sign.
An appeal was made and lost. Could I have appealed an appeal given the FACT that the runner absolutely did not tag-up. The wrong call was made but never got corrected. What went wrong?
After the game I asked the base umpire why he didn't call the runner out since he did not tag-up. Said he didn't see the play(runner tagging or not tagging) therefor was unable to make an out call. Ask as to why he did not see it indicated it was not his responsiblity for that call as he was moving infield to watch the batter-runner touch 1st base in case there was no catch; why not ask partner for help - he couldn't confer with partner since it was a live ball appeal rather than a dead ball appeal.
Whose call was it? Did the base umpire handle the appeal correctly whether or not it was or wasn't his call?

Speaking ASA

The base umpire that does not go out for the catch is responsible for the tag up at 2B and any play at 2B. PU is responsible for the catch, play at 3B and/or home

When the play was completed, an infielder could have requested a dead ball appeal at which point you could then also request he go to his partner for help.

[Crabby_Bob]

ASA: If there's a catch, BU has all of it: the tag-up, play, or appeal at 2nd, and the play at 3rd.

[MD Longhorn]

Is there any reason you did not try to make a dead-ball appeal at the end of this conversation and then ask him to ask his partner?

Given that BU did not go out on the fly, I think you've gotten your answer - that this was BU's responsibility. If that's so, the ONLY thing he did right was not ask his partner during a live ball - but he surely could have (and likely would have) if you'd asked - especially after he clearly admitted he didn't see the play.

[EsqUmp]

The base umpire was probably too busy pointlessly running inside the diamond rather than just opening, facing the ball and watching the play.

[MrRabbit]

Originally Posted by EsqUmp

The base umpire was probably too busy pointlessly running inside the diamond rather than just opening, facing the ball and watching the play.

So what you are saying that the procedure listed on page 259 of the 2012 Umpires Manual for this situation is incorrect?

[tcannizzo]

don't feed the troll

[EsqUmp]

Originally Posted by MrRabbit

So what you are saying that the procedure listed on page 259 of the 2012 Umpires Manual for this situation is incorrect?

What I am saying is that is not the best mechanic, despite what ASA says.

On an obvious can of corn to right of center, what advantage is there for the base umpire to come inside the diamond? The elements are all already in front of the umpire. Even if you use the questionable ASA mechanic of having the base umpire take the sole runner at 2nd to 3rd on the tag-up, the base umpire is better off staying outside the diamond so as to not have the cut off throw the ball by the umpire's head when trying to get R2 going to 3rd.

[Jake26]

Originally Posted by EsqUmp

... Even if you use the questionable ASA mechanic of having the base umpire take the sole runner at 2nd to 3rd on the tag-up, ...

The BU does not have this runner going to 3rd - the PU does.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by Jake26

The BU does not have this runner going to 3rd - the PU does.

How do you figure? If the catch is made then the lone runner is the last runner and the last runner belongs to BU.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by youngump

How do you figure? If the catch is made then the lone runner is the last runner and the last runner belongs to BU.

as above:

The base umpire that does not go out for the catch is responsible for the tag up at 2B and any play at 2B.

PU is responsible for the catch, play at 3B and/or home

[IRISHMAFIA]

With a runner on 2B only, the BU has the tag-up and the runner to 3B

QUESTION: In the Two Umpire System, Fast Pitch or Slow Pitch, when does the base umpire cover 3B?
ANSWER: There are four times the base umpire has responsibility for a play at third base. They are:
1. on the batter-runner on a triple with no runners on base.
2. on the last runner into third base.
3. on a lone runner on fly ball advancement.
4. on any return throw from the plate area or a cut-off by a player.

[celebur]

Originally Posted by Coach007

An appeal was made and lost. Could I have appealed an appeal given the FACT that the runner absolutely did not tag-up. The wrong call was made but never got corrected. What went wrong?

Sounds like several things went wrong. Others have already stated that the tag-up was this umpire's responsibility; I'll add that if he really thought it was his partner's responsibility, then he had no business ruling on this appeal. In situations like this, if you're the head coach, you need to ask for time right away and go ask that umpire politely for an explanation. If it then becomes clear that he ruled safe because he didn't see it, you should then ask if he would get together with his partner.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

as above:

The base umpire that does not go out for the catch is responsible for the tag up at 2B and any play at 2B.

PU is responsible for the catch, play at 3B and/or home

Cecil, I know you know this. Brainfart? Not enough coffee yet?