U12 tournament rules

[Rachel]

I helped out at a U12 B tournament today. The rules were:
Bat the bench (not a problem)
4 oufielders(10 on the field)
No stealing ever.
Can't go to first on a d3k.

It was so slow that I wondered what the kids were actually learning. At some point the catchers have to learn that they need to catch the ball. The whole game is based on aggressive base running. At some point we have to go through ugly ball to get to actual fast pitch. On the other hand it was easy. I used the "time zone strike zone" as in if you can reach it hit it. No one complained and I had fun BS'ing with the coaches. Does it do the kids a disservice to dummy it down like this?

[Dakota]

Originally posted by Rachel
I helped out at a U12 B tournament today. The rules were:
Bat the bench (not a problem)
4 oufielders(10 on the field)
No stealing ever.
Can't go to first on a d3k.

Does it do the kids a disservice to dummy it down like this?

IMO, yes. I don't have a problem with the bat the bench rule, or the usual accompanying unlimited defensive substitution rule. I don't even think I have a problem with 10 outfielders, although it probably results in more fly balls dropping between two fielders who are both afraid to call it instead of more catches.

The no stealing and no D3K are an extreme version of the 10U rules, and only hold these kids back, IMO.

After all, the 10U rules are set up to teach the catchers and infielders how to handle trying to throw down on a steal without making them pay too high a price. If you don't allow stealing at all, where's the learning?

[Dakota]

Rachel,

Where was this tournament? I called a rec tournament today (in Lakeville), and they only used the bat the bench / unlimited sub rule. Play was a little rough for some of the 12U's, but at least they were trying & learning.

[Rachel]

Hutchinson, I felt that those rules (no stealing) held the teams back and kept them from getting better. We still had lopsided games.

[BratzCoach]

Originally posted by Rachel
Hutchinson, I felt that those rules (no stealing) held the teams back and kept them from getting better. We still had lopsided games.

As a 10U coach, I'm not sure what the kids are learning if stealing is allowed. Most of the kids are seeing live pitching for the first time (unless the league has a Pixie or 9U div). Most of my kids are fresh out of instructional league (some of them didn't even get that--they're playing for the first time!!) , and many of them are still figuring out the basics of which base to throw to, and when to do it.

So I'd prefer not to throw too much at them in their first year. It can be overwhelming, and then they learn nothing.

Also, I haven't figured out which kids will make the best catchers yet. The ones who play well in practice don't always play well in games. Same with the pitcher who throws 90% over the plate on the sideline, then steps on the mound and can only get 10% over the plate.

But it is painful to watch...

[Dakota]

Originally posted by BratzCoach
[As a 10U coach, I'm not sure what the kids are learning if stealing is allowed. Most of the kids are seeing live pitching for the first time (unless the league has a Pixie or 9U div). Most of my kids are fresh out of instructional league (some of them didn't even get that--they're playing for the first time!!) , and many of them are still figuring out the basics of which base to throw to, and when to do it.

So I'd prefer not to throw too much at them in their first year. It can be overwhelming, and then they learn nothing.

I think you are underestimating them. When my daughter started at 10U, in the early part of the season (which here lasts for only 2 - 2 1/2 months), the winner of any game was determined by which team actually got 3 outs in a half inning (run limits per inning). By the end of the season, they were playing good defense (for 10U) and other teams only reached the run limit when the team had one of those 10U "bad innings."

Sure, the early season games are painful, but it is also amazing and gratifying to see the progress in just a few weeks.

If you don't challenge them with skills they need to master, they won't master them.

[Matt-MI]

Last year my daughter's 12U team played in a tournament with those rules and it seemed to just confuse them. They had a hard time remembering not to run on a passed ball. This did indeed make for some long boring games and the girls & parents voted not to go back this year.

[sprivitor]

Stealing

This is why I like USSSA or LL rules. Can't stand not stealing. I have a whole team of 9 year olds and these girls execute well. This is one reason I don't like Dixie or ASA.

[JEL]

Have coached, and called in several associations, and see a HUGE difference in abilities at same age. Most leagues play A, B, and even C ball. A first year 12U team may need the "instructional" rules, rec leagues should try and accomodate all levels, and tournament directors try and group A, B, and C levels. I called a 12U tournament this weekend, and was amazed at the level of play. We used ASA rules, with a 75 min limit, 10-8-6 runs after 3-4-5, bat up to 11, play any 9. This was excellent ball, games were exciting, and all teams were evenly matched. It wouldnt have been the same without the base stealing, D3K's, infield flies, etc. These girls were capable of play at this level, not all are. There are enough different leagues to accomodate all, you just gotta find them. BTW, in 9 games, only two were ended by run rule!

[Dakota]

Originally posted by sprivitor
Stealing

This is why I like USSSA or LL rules. Can't stand not stealing. I have a whole team of 9 year olds and these girls execute well. This is one reason I don't like Dixie or ASA.

At 10U, ASA allows stealing. They just limit the steal to one base per pitch and do not allow advancing home except on a batted ball, force (walk or HBP), or award. The idea is to encourage catchers to throw down on the steal from first or second.

Early season 10U, you have a lot of bases-loaded situations as pitchers and catchers are trying to develop their skills. Late season, though, you have pretty good play happening.

I think the ASA rules for 10U are good for that age. They are not over-protective, and they encourage skill development.

I know of no sanctioning body that has the rules like Rachel mentioned.

Speaking of restrictive rules, LL's participation and pitcher limit rules are ineffective and not helpful to the game (IMO).

[Skahtboi]

sprivitor:

USSSA and ASA have the exact same rules on stealing in 10U. There is no difference at all. Dixie is slowly coming around. This year they made the game a lot closer to ASA's, only without the stealing. Give it a year or two.

Now...back to the original question:

Originally posted by Rachel
Does it do the kids a disservice to dummy it down like this?

IMO, yes. By that age they should be learning the finer points of the game. I am speaking as not just an umpire here, but as a dad who coached for many years, and was always looking for ways to get my girls more experience, better quality of play, and better skills and mechanics.

[Edited by Skahtboi on Jun 23rd, 2003 at 01:14 PM]

[Elaine "Lady Blue"]

My DD played 12U A, with regular ASA FP rules; the only rules difference in 12U B was 4 outfielders and bat the whole bench, and that was ok. Nearly all of Metro Atlanta played this way then, and most of them still do. We didn't take away anything else from the 'B' group. Those that excelled played A the next year while some were destined to stay in B. It's ok, some girls don't have the skill to play A. Once past 12U B, all the rest of the B rules mirrors the A.
Taking away stealing on a WP or PB or D3rd is stupid!!! I've seen some 12U B that wouldn't allow the IF to be called and that was stupid, too.