What does "fair territory" have to do with "dead ball territory?"

And just where does it state that the inward face of the fence establishes the perpendicular plain? Since many of the fences on ball fields are of the chain-link variety, would you call a catch & carry if a player catching the ball grasped the fence? If not, why not? After all, he has mad contact with the fence beyond the inward face, didn't he?

POE 20 "The fence is an extension of the playing field, making it legal for a player to climb and make the catch. If he catches the ball in the air and his momentum carries him through or over the fence, the catch is legal."

<snip-catch and carry ref. My emphasis ahead>

"1. If the fielder catches the ball before touching the ground outside the playing area, the catch is legal, or
2. If the fielder catches the ball after touching the ground outside the playing area, it is not a catch. If a portable fence is used which is collapsible and a defensive player is standing on the fence, it is ruled a legal catch. A defensive player can climb a fence to make a catch, and should be able to stand on a fence which has fallen to the ground. Ther should be no doubt left in an umpire's judgement whether the fence is on the ground, six inches off the ground or three feet off the ground when the defender steps on it. As long as the defensive player has not stepped ouside the playing area (other side of the fence) the catch will be legal."

POE 26 notes that the DBT is considered to be in play. If standing on it, a player is considered to be in play as long as the entire part of one foot is not in contact with the ground at the time of the catch.

How often have you seen a player catch a ball over a fence and touch any article whether a fan, seat back of the fence or whatever to gain balance and push themselves back into the field of play? Are the runners moved up a base if the player didn't literally fall onto the ground outside of playable territory? NO!

So, if a player standing on or a ball resting upon a DBT line is considered in play, or a player climbing or standing or sitting on a fallen or erect fence, or a player in flight beyond any fence or DBT can make a legal catch prior to touching the ground beyond it, why would you think that a ball which hits the top of the fence is immediately dead?

You go ahead and call it that way. Good luck.

Sigh...I knew I was going to regret this.

<i>What does "fair territory" have to do with "dead ball territory?"</i>

Well - let's see. We have fair territory. We have a fence. To assert that anything beyond the part of the fence that defines fair territory is not DBT is just being obstinate.

<i>And just where does it state that the inward face of the fence establishes the perpendicular plain?</i>

The definition listed earlier says it. "Bottom of the fence - perpendicularly upwards" Unless Scott was incorrect.

<i>So, if a player standing on or a ball resting upon a DBT line is considered in play, or a player climbing or standing or sitting on a fallen or erect fence, or a player in flight beyond any fence or DBT can make a legal catch prior to touching the ground beyond it, why would you think that a ball which hits the top of the fence is immediately dead?</i>

Picture yourself in a ballpark with the following setup: Just beyond the outfield fence (not a snow fence, not any kind of temporary that will fall over when a bird lands on it or a player bumps it - maybe it's a concrete wall), there are elevated bleachers. A ball is hit past the fence - it bounces off the front of the bleachers and the fielder reaches over the fence and catches it before it hits the ground. Is this a catch??? I don't think so. It's not even a playable ball.

The top of the fence is the same as the front of the bleachers. It is an object beyond the fair territory.


I have seen this discussed in several forums (baseball & softball) by people with far more expertise than you and I. Each time, the conclusion has been the same - 4 bases.

-Kono

Mike,

I was merely stating what Kono was getting at, having seen this argument many times on the baseball boards. My personal opinion on the subject is that if the ball stays inside the field, then it mus have hit the "front" of the fence in order to cause the momentum reversal; ir it goes on over the fence, then it would be a homerun.

SamC

Please bring to the forum those umpires who have more expertise than a state UIC with multiple nationals, ISF certification, over 30 years experience in multiple disciplines, dozens of clinics, and has provided many clear and correct explanations to forum questions. They can even type B4 when they mean B5. :D

Thank you, CO, but this one isn't a typo ;)

Obviously, some rather read what they want, pick and chose what to apply. The last example Kono offers is beyond the point of absurd and not even close to the debate.

I'm done with this one.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA

Quote:

Obviously, some rather read what they want, pick and chose what to apply. The last example Kono offers is beyond the point of absurd and not even close to the debate. I'm done with this one.

Boy - now I'm beginning to see why BDB was so enthralled with you on McGriff's. Talk about chosing what to read...my last example was the debate - the top of the fence is no different than the bleachers (based on the definition of fair territory).

Instead of talking about what happens with the ball, you chose to post some absurdity about fielders climbing fences. Maybe 30 years of doing this has clouded your ability to focus.

Now I'm done.

Let me add one thing to this fence argument. A fence is a three dimensional object. "Bottom of the fence" then, would be the three dimensional bottom. Extending perpendicularly upward would include through the top of the fence, theoretically making the top of the fence in fair territory.

ASA POE 20 clearly states that the fence is an extension of the playing field.

So yes, kono, the top of the fence is different from the bleachers.

Oh Paleeeeezzzz :D Don't tell me you really believe that.

"Sorry young lady. Even though that ball is stuck under the fence - it's still in play. You had better get it out quick before another runner scores."

Just to add a little mix in here. Most of the fences here have those green or yellow caps on them. The cap is rounded and protrudes on both sides of the fence.

If you were to take a perpendicular line up the front of the fence it would leave some of the cap inside the park and some of the cap outside.

Now personally I can see that, in general, if a fly ball were to hit the cap "inside" the fence line then the ball will likely bounce back into the field. If it were to hit on the outside of the cap then it will continue out to DBT.

The odds of my being able to see for certain which side of the cap the ball hit on are just about zero. So if a fair ball hits and continues out then I have a Home Run. If it hits and returns to the field then I have a live ball. If the ball hits the cap and is then gloved by a fielder I have no catch but a live ball.

Also I have seen a couple of league where there make it simple and by local rule if the ball hits the cap on the fly it's a home run.

John T

I am not sure what a trapped ball has to do with the lines of a playing field, since obviously a ball can become trapped anywhere inside the live ball area, i.e. catcher's equipment, player or umpire's uniform, discarded equipment...etc. Are you saying that if a ball becomes trapped in live ball territory, I can't kill the play? We both know how ridiculous that sounds. A ball stuck anywhere is a trapped ball....period. I thought that we were discussing the live ball versus dead ball territory here, and most specifically where the fence line actually falls. Kono, the rule books are quite clear and specific.