Had a couple firsts last night, one I called and one I'm glad I didn't have to call.

First I'll try to draw a mental picture for you of the field. High fence extends to a couple feet past 1B. Now look 90 deg to Right about 30". Low fence starts and angles back to original fence line, turns, and goes out to outfield fence corner. So there is a narrow triangle of space to the right of the fence line extended that the players use to enter/exit the field.

Situation: ASA Men's FP, I'm PU. High fly just over and right of 1B. F4 goes to fence, reaches over and snags ball just off player's bench. Mentally I am congratulating him for a fine catch when I look down and see both feet in the triangle. "No catch" I yell, and point to the ground. "Both feet in dead ball territory."

The hi-fives stopped and everyone looked at me with a look that said they were trying to figure out what the rule was and whether or not to challenge me. No one did, play went on and the batter hit the next pitch into CF for a clean single. Later some of the players talked to my partner and he told them they could not have a legal catch if the ball was over DB territory when caught! "Ohhh, right - partner!"

2nd Situation: fly ball over 3B. F6 goes to fence (in live ball territory), ball bounced off glove, into chest. F6 is now into fence, ball touches top rail of fence and back into body. F6 hits ground, and then I see yellow spheroid on ground. Relieved, I yell "Foul Ball!"

Relieved because I wasn't sure of my call if he had made the catch. The ball is in foul territority, not yet under control by the fielder, and touches the fence before being caught. The ball was actually trapped against the fence by his body as he fell. I have to believe this would be a foul ball even if he retained possesion - but it would have been a hard sell. Do you agree?

WMB

BTW - before you comment on 1st situation: both feet were entirely in DBT when the catch was made. One or both feet did not enter DBT after the catch.

As far as I know, touching the fence is the same as touching the ground in ruling on a catch.

<i>"No catch" I yell, and point to the ground. "Both feet in dead ball territory."
The hi-fives stopped and everyone looked at me with a look that said they were trying to figure out what the rule was and whether or not to challenge me.</i>

Good call. Now you could have had some real fun if there were runners and he did catch it before entering DBT :D

<i>Later some of the players talked to my partner and he told them they could not have a legal catch if the ball was over DB territory when caught! "Ohhh, right - partner!"</i>

Yup - and you can't rob a homerun either????

Just for fun Sit 2 - but in the outfield at the fence. What do you have (remember - you said it touched the <b>top</b> of the fence)

-Kono

WMB - Sit 2. Foul ball as soon as it touches the fence. Hard sell - you bet! The best you can do is start getting as close to the fielder as you can so that you are right there to make the call. Throw the hands up and start yelling FOUL as soon as the ball touches the fence. Obviously, you saw the ball touch the fence, but you did not mention how far away from the play you were. A big part of selling a call is being in the right place.

Kono's twist - Ball touched the fence, so it cannot be caught for an out. If the ball stays inside the fence, live ball, play on. If the ball is touched by the fielder, then hits the top of the outfield fence and bounces over the fence, I'm going to say 4 base award.

I'm sure someone will correct me if I am wrong!

Situation 2 - Ball that hit s the fence behind home plate cannot be caught for an out (or trapped between catcher's body and fence for an out). Wouldn't the same logic apply to outfield fence - whether fair or foul?

I believe Mr. Kono's point was that since the fence is the "dead ball" line then if the ball hit the top of the fence it would be considered a 4-base award whether it bounced back into the field of play or continued over the fence.

SamC

Bingo Sam!! :D

Not in any of my games.

I think Sit 2 started with the ball hitting the fielder's glove first (" ball bounced off glove, into chest. F6 is now into fence, ball touches top rail of fence "), so that would make it a four-base if it continued over.

Speaking ASA

Only if it continued to the ground or an article on the ground in DBT on the other side of the fence.

I know I'm gonna regret doing this :D but I'm gonna disagree anyway.

Since the playing field is defined by the <i>front face of the fence,</i> once the ball hits the top of the fence it has hit something equal to the ground (the top of the fence) in DBT. Where it bounces after that doesn't matter.

-Kono

Disagree all you want, in ASA, you would be wrong. No where does it state that the top of a fence is in dead ball territory. It is a fact that a DBT line is "in play" as is a collapsed temporary fence and is doesn't specify whether it falls forward or back.

Check out ASA POE 20 & 26.

Mike -

Temporary fences aside...

What is the ASA definition of "Fair Territory"??? The only definition that I have ever seen (and what my comments are based upon) is the MLB definition:

<i>FAIR TERRITORY is that part of the playing field within, and including the first base and third base lines, from home base to the bottom of the playing field fence and perpendicularly upwards. All foul lines are in fair territory.</i>

:D Now - don't start yelling at me that this is a softball forum and not baseball. I have previously been lead to believe that most if not all rule sets use a similar definition.

Thanx

-Kono

ASA defines Fair Territory with almost the same exact wording.

Thanx. That would make the top of the fence DBT correct??

The ball has now gone beyond fair territory and struck an object (the top of the fence) in DBT.

-Kono

What does "fair territory" have to do with "dead ball territory?"

And just where does it state that the inward face of the fence establishes the perpendicular plain? Since many of the fences on ball fields are of the chain-link variety, would you call a catch & carry if a player catching the ball grasped the fence? If not, why not? After all, he has mad contact with the fence beyond the inward face, didn't he?

POE 20 "The fence is an extension of the playing field, making it legal for a player to climb and make the catch. If he catches the ball in the air and his momentum carries him through or over the fence, the catch is legal."

<snip-catch and carry ref. My emphasis ahead>

"1. If the fielder catches the ball before touching the ground outside the playing area, the catch is legal, or
2. If the fielder catches the ball after touching the ground outside the playing area, it is not a catch. If a portable fence is used which is collapsible and a defensive player is standing on the fence, it is ruled a legal catch. A defensive player can climb a fence to make a catch, and should be able to stand on a fence which has fallen to the ground. Ther should be no doubt left in an umpire's judgement whether the fence is on the ground, six inches off the ground or three feet off the ground when the defender steps on it. As long as the defensive player has not stepped ouside the playing area (other side of the fence) the catch will be legal."

POE 26 notes that the DBT is considered to be in play. If standing on it, a player is considered to be in play as long as the entire part of one foot is not in contact with the ground at the time of the catch.

How often have you seen a player catch a ball over a fence and touch any article whether a fan, seat back of the fence or whatever to gain balance and push themselves back into the field of play? Are the runners moved up a base if the player didn't literally fall onto the ground outside of playable territory? NO!

So, if a player standing on or a ball resting upon a DBT line is considered in play, or a player climbing or standing or sitting on a fallen or erect fence, or a player in flight beyond any fence or DBT can make a legal catch prior to touching the ground beyond it, why would you think that a ball which hits the top of the fence is immediately dead?

You go ahead and call it that way. Good luck.

Sigh...I knew I was going to regret this.

<i>What does "fair territory" have to do with "dead ball territory?"</i>

Well - let's see. We have fair territory. We have a fence. To assert that anything beyond the part of the fence that defines fair territory is not DBT is just being obstinate.

<i>And just where does it state that the inward face of the fence establishes the perpendicular plain?</i>

The definition listed earlier says it. "Bottom of the fence - perpendicularly upwards" Unless Scott was incorrect.

<i>So, if a player standing on or a ball resting upon a DBT line is considered in play, or a player climbing or standing or sitting on a fallen or erect fence, or a player in flight beyond any fence or DBT can make a legal catch prior to touching the ground beyond it, why would you think that a ball which hits the top of the fence is immediately dead?</i>

Picture yourself in a ballpark with the following setup: Just beyond the outfield fence (not a snow fence, not any kind of temporary that will fall over when a bird lands on it or a player bumps it - maybe it's a concrete wall), there are elevated bleachers. A ball is hit past the fence - it bounces off the front of the bleachers and the fielder reaches over the fence and catches it before it hits the ground. Is this a catch??? I don't think so. It's not even a playable ball.

The top of the fence is the same as the front of the bleachers. It is an object beyond the fair territory.


I have seen this discussed in several forums (baseball & softball) by people with far more expertise than you and I. Each time, the conclusion has been the same - 4 bases.

-Kono

Mike,

I was merely stating what Kono was getting at, having seen this argument many times on the baseball boards. My personal opinion on the subject is that if the ball stays inside the field, then it mus have hit the "front" of the fence in order to cause the momentum reversal; ir it goes on over the fence, then it would be a homerun.

SamC

Please bring to the forum those umpires who have more expertise than a state UIC with multiple nationals, ISF certification, over 30 years experience in multiple disciplines, dozens of clinics, and has provided many clear and correct explanations to forum questions. They can even type B4 when they mean B5. :D

Thank you, CO, but this one isn't a typo ;)

Obviously, some rather read what they want, pick and chose what to apply. The last example Kono offers is beyond the point of absurd and not even close to the debate.

I'm done with this one.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA

Quote:

Obviously, some rather read what they want, pick and chose what to apply. The last example Kono offers is beyond the point of absurd and not even close to the debate. I'm done with this one.

Boy - now I'm beginning to see why BDB was so enthralled with you on McGriff's. Talk about chosing what to read...my last example was the debate - the top of the fence is no different than the bleachers (based on the definition of fair territory).

Instead of talking about what happens with the ball, you chose to post some absurdity about fielders climbing fences. Maybe 30 years of doing this has clouded your ability to focus.

Now I'm done.

Let me add one thing to this fence argument. A fence is a three dimensional object. "Bottom of the fence" then, would be the three dimensional bottom. Extending perpendicularly upward would include through the top of the fence, theoretically making the top of the fence in fair territory.

ASA POE 20 clearly states that the fence is an extension of the playing field.

So yes, kono, the top of the fence is different from the bleachers.

Oh Paleeeeezzzz :D Don't tell me you really believe that.

"Sorry young lady. Even though that ball is stuck under the fence - it's still in play. You had better get it out quick before another runner scores."

Just to add a little mix in here. Most of the fences here have those green or yellow caps on them. The cap is rounded and protrudes on both sides of the fence.

If you were to take a perpendicular line up the front of the fence it would leave some of the cap inside the park and some of the cap outside.

Now personally I can see that, in general, if a fly ball were to hit the cap "inside" the fence line then the ball will likely bounce back into the field. If it were to hit on the outside of the cap then it will continue out to DBT.

The odds of my being able to see for certain which side of the cap the ball hit on are just about zero. So if a fair ball hits and continues out then I have a Home Run. If it hits and returns to the field then I have a live ball. If the ball hits the cap and is then gloved by a fielder I have no catch but a live ball.

Also I have seen a couple of league where there make it simple and by local rule if the ball hits the cap on the fly it's a home run.

John T

I am not sure what a trapped ball has to do with the lines of a playing field, since obviously a ball can become trapped anywhere inside the live ball area, i.e. catcher's equipment, player or umpire's uniform, discarded equipment...etc. Are you saying that if a ball becomes trapped in live ball territory, I can't kill the play? We both know how ridiculous that sounds. A ball stuck anywhere is a trapped ball....period. I thought that we were discussing the live ball versus dead ball territory here, and most specifically where the fence line actually falls. Kono, the rule books are quite clear and specific.