Mechanics review

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

W

A) What is your philosophy and your practice on calling the obstruction when there is no play being made?
for example:
1- poss pickoff sitch, runner returning to 1st blocked by F3, no throw
2- runner at any base blocked from rounding the base when there is no apparent attempt to proceed (assume enough of a block to make the runner stop short or overrun to the side)
3- lead runer sidestepping a non-involved fielder on a deep base hit

1 - call it. Why would you not?
2 - call it. Why would you not?
3 - call it. Why would you not?

B) Poss pickoff sit, F3 or F4 straddling 1st, which are OBS to call:
1 - 2nd base side of base
2 - over the fair/white side
3 - over the foul/color side
4 - feet anywhere with body over the base

Huh? I don't know ... what did the runner do?

[Andy]

Gotta agree with the crowd here.....

I would at minimum, signal the obstruction in all of the A) situations

I need to see what happened with the runner in the B) situations

[DaveASA/FED]

I guess I'm not sure what you are looking for here. The fielders position has ZERO to do with whether I would call OBS or not. Granted their are positions that make OBS more likely, but a fielders position alone will NOT get an OBS call. The runner has to be hindered or impeded to get an obstruction call.

Lets say this runner is leading off at an angle toward right center to have a path to round 2nd base on a deep hit, they may come back to 1B behind that fielder that has both feet on the 2B side of 1B and not be hindered or impeded at all, so no obstruction call. Conversely they may be completely behind the base but R1's chosen path to return to 1B has to be altered to get back to 1B, in this case I have obstruction.

Again, not sure what point you are trying to make (but would like to understand) but position of the fielder alone should never draw an automatic OBS call. And positioning of the fielder should never protect them from having OBS called on them. Bottom line any time a fielder without possession of the ball, and not in the act of fielding a batted ball (ASA) (or making an initial play, in NFHS) hinders or impedes a runner obstruction should be called.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

OK, hopefully to clarify, I assumed saying "which are OBS to call" meant there was a hindrance of the runner with or without a throw to the base and I was asking about which degree(s) of the fielder position is/are violation(s) of the rule.
IOW, I think both feet on the 2nd base side of 1st contacted by the runner is clearly a violation and called.
The above different degrees of base-blocking by the fielder are the questions of whether they matter if there is any hindrance.

Sorry about the cryptic results of my typing aversion, I'll have to keep fighting it.
Hoping for voice input sometime soon.

Still: - I know what I think & do, will post later, checking for disagreement.

Well... honestly, if these are the things you are thinking about, comparing and contrasting, etc, when deciding whether or not to call obstruction, I am not sure you are being correctly told when to call it. No offense intended.

The first set of 3 (the ones you didn't repost) are obstruction every day and twice on Sunday. Call any of those situations every single time. Without thinking about it. Period. Granted - 90% of the time (or more) it will not matter at all that you called it. But for those 10% you better have called it when it happened, and not tried to retroactively call it. Besides, on the occasion that the defense does these things and you call it, the offense is allowed to try to capitalize, if they are paying attention. If you refuse to call it because you believe it's not going to matter, you take away that right.

The second set of 4 - as several have pointed out - the thing you are trying to differentiate is COMPLETELY irrelevant. You can have #1 (which appears to be the most likely to be OBS) not be obstruction at all. You can have #4 (apparently the least likely) and have obstruction. You can have a fielder BEYOND the base, and have it still be obstruction (rare, but possible). Where, in relation to the base, she's standing is NOT what the umpire should be worried about.

I think what bothers me most is this:

The above different degrees of base-blocking by the fielder are the questions of whether they matter if there is any hindrance.

This sounds like baseball thinking to me. Don't think base-blocking. Think RUNNER-blocking or hindering.

Regarding this:

I assumed saying "which are OBS to call" meant there was a hindrance of the runner

You say right there that there was a hindrance... THAT IS OBSTRUCTION.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Dave, Mike, et al,

Did you note my comment above?
"Still: - I know what I think & do, will post later, checking for disagreement. "

No base ball in my mind, just trying to describe fielder position w/o using rule terminology.

Yes, I know I propose ambiguous topics and often too cryptically, sometimes to prove a point, will post my opinion and reason for this later.
You are all a great help on all topics, which I sincerely appreciate.

Problem is you are taking something that is very, VERY simple and asking people to consider irrelevant data in the application of the rule. Why convolute such a simple issue? Isn't it bad enough ASA already causes issues referring to the base in the RS without umpires perpetuating the misconception that a defender's position at the base has any valid meaning?

[MrRabbit]

Question in relation to ASA obstruction.

R1 on first, Pitcher starts the pitch, F3 moves in between R1 and the pitcher to hinder R1 from knowing when the ball is released hindering R1 from breaking for second on a steal.

Do you have obstruction?

[SRW]

Originally Posted by MrRabbit

Question in relation to ASA obstruction.

R1 on first, Pitcher starts the pitch, F3 moves in between R1 and the pitcher to hinder R1 from knowing when the ball is released hindering R1 from breaking for second on a steal.

Do you have obstruction?

No.
If you do, sell it to me. Explain how F3 impeded the progress of R1...

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by MrRabbit

Question in relation to ASA obstruction.

R1 on first, Pitcher starts the pitch, F3 moves in between R1 and the pitcher to hinder R1 from knowing when the ball is released hindering R1 from breaking for second on a steal.

Do you have obstruction?

Please keep this a mechanics thread, not rules.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Please keep this a mechanics thread, not rules.

No offense intended here, but how is his question any different in this regard from yours where you posted 7 scenarios and asked if we would call obstruction?

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

No offense intended here, but how is his question any different in this regard from yours where you posted 7 scenarios and asked if we would call obstruction?

Mike, you are correct and definitely not offending. I realized that as soon as I saw Rabbitt's question and just hoped not to have all perpetuate my mistake. I'll try to find time to reconstruct as a separate thread.

[CecilOne]

I reposted my starter on this in a thread called "about OBS calls".

I will delete my part of this from this thread and hope all do likewise.

THANK YOU ! !

[CecilOne]

Just some little things, base on ASA 2 umps; but add NFHS & NCAA if you like.

A) agree or disagree
BU in B slot, pop up to SS pretty deep, this is a time to ignore inside/outside to avoid throwing lane

B) agree or disagree
Assuming PU is covering 3rd even if first play if from the outfield; it is still from the outfield if a relay by SS

C) R1 going home, R2 to 3rd, other runner(s):
How do you as BU judge whether PU is needed at home or should cover 3rd?
Please say if Q too cryptic/simplistic (politely of course).

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

A) agree or disagree
BU in B slot, pop up to SS pretty deep, this is a time to ignore inside/outside to avoid throwing lane

Huh? No. Don't ignore it. Stay outside.

B) agree or disagree
Assuming PU is covering 3rd even if first play if from the outfield; it is still from the outfield if a relay by SS

Of course.

C) R1 going home, R2 to 3rd, other runner(s):
How do you as BU judge whether PU is needed at home or should cover 3rd?
Please say if Q too cryptic/simplistic (politely of course).

No need for me, as BU, to need to judge. Someone is going home... PU stays home. Period. I have everything else.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

No need for me, as BU, to need to judge. Someone is going home... PU stays home. Period. I have everything else.

The need I meant is judging when the PU is no longer needed at HP, so both don't call the play at 3rd. Is it just dependent on the PU communicating or do you have a criteria for observation by the BU?
Or, are you saying that anytime there is a runner going home on a play, the PU "never" leaves for 3rd, even after the runner scores? Ignore TWP and where the throw goes for now.

[Big Slick]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Just some little things, base on ASA 2 umps; but add NFHS & NCAA if you like.

A) agree or disagree
BU in B slot, pop up to SS pretty deep, this is a time to ignore inside/outside to avoid throwing lane

In ASA and Fed mechanics, you do move inside. You have to be aware not to be in the throwing lane, therefore a bit deeper in the infield than usual depending. For NCAA, you can read the play from either an inside or outside position.

And one more time to pick the nit: no softball organization labels starting positions by letters. If you say "two umpire system, runner on first" we know where you start. BTW, most umpire do not start in a good position with a runner on first, they are too far back, but that's a different thread.

B) agree or disagree
Assuming PU is covering 3rd even if first play if from the outfield; it is still from the outfield if a relay by SS

"First play from the outfield" is a meaningless phrase in softball. We have "first play in the infield" for runners at third.

PU has responsibilities at third with the exceptions of a) first play in the infield, b) steal of third, c) Batter/Runner and d) when a throw going home is cut off and thrown to third.

C) R1 going home, R2 to 3rd, other runner(s):
How do you as BU judge whether PU is needed at home or should cover 3rd?
Please say if Q too cryptic/simplistic (politely of course).

Well, as my last answer (see PU responsibilities at third), for ASA and Fed mechanics, you stay in the holding zone (between third and home) and read the throw. If the throw is directly to third, you move to a calling position at third. If the throw is home and/or cut, you stay at home (see above). For NCAA two umpires (looking in the three umpire section when a BU chases), it is the same as ASA/Fed with one exception: if there are two outs, PU stays home, BU has all bases.

This is one of my biggest pet peeves when working with some umpires. They fail to cover third and stay at the plate without even reading the play. I hear "well, a throw could come home" or (my personal fav) "I have to watch the runner touch the plate."