Mechanics review

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by DRJ1960

OP stipulated no possible throw.

Fair enough, but there's no such play where no throw is "possible".

I've seen clinicians teach that you reach your position you would to make a call on a sliding runner into 2nd, and if it develops to third, you continue on the inside track toward 3rd. I don't like this advice. That's an awful position for a snap return throw if she doesn't end up going for 3rd, I no longer have the ball in my peripheral vision, etc. LOTS of reasons not to do that. Staying outside keeps everything in your vision, keeps you out of the play, gives you optimum positioning for any of the possible developing plays.

(As to PU taking the throw to 3rd, if not pre-gamed, no way, and if I'm BU, that won't be part of it. I have, however, taken this in pre-game as PU, especially with older BU's, or if they've had several games and I have not.)

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by DRJ1960

OP stipulated no possible throw.

B slot, runner goes to 2nd on passed ball. Do you continue to C immediately or stay at 2nd and actually wait for ball back to pitcher?

Where?

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

B slot, runner goes to 2nd on passed ball. Do you continue to C immediately or stay at 2nd and actually wait for ball back to pitcher?

Where?

Isn't there still a possible play at 2nd until the ball is in the circle? Runners round, or step off, and defenses occasionally throw behind.

Until this play sequence has ended, you have no reason to move to an initial position for the NEXT pitch. Once the ball is in the circle, you have plenty of time to move to your next position.

Where? 90 to the possible tag (back into 2nd from 3rd) inside/out to the location of the ball..

That said, if there is no defensive player in position to make a possible play back into 2nd (they all moved on), no sense standing there pointing like a bird dog, either (unless an NCAA TV or evaluation game).

[CecilOne]

Thanks to those who posted helpful answers and the rebuttals of non-hepful.
I think what you said is what i've been doing, by instinct, not thought.

[CecilOne]

How about this? BU in A when batter walks.

Why is there an objection to the BU moving off the line into the infield before the BR gets to 1st? Or, is there really a taught objection (as "honor the runner")?
It seems to me moving off the line is better prep for an advance/attempt to 2nd.

If this is an item, is it an NCAA thing?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

How about this? BU in A when batter walks.

Why is there an objection to the BU moving off the line into the infield before the BR gets to 1st? Or, is there really a taught objection (as "honor the runner")?
It seems to me moving off the line is better prep for an advance/attempt to 2nd.

If this is an item, is it an NCAA thing?

We have one guy that waits - I asked him why and he didn't know why. Everyone else I know moves toward (but not TO) B as BR is heading to first.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

How about this? BU in A when batter walks.

Why is there an objection to the BU moving off the line into the infield before the BR gets to 1st? Or, is there really a taught objection (as "honor the runner")?
It seems to me moving off the line is better prep for an advance/attempt to 2nd.

If this is an item, is it an NCAA thing?

It is an NCAA mechanic based on the three umpires system (the NCAA manual standard). When B walks with no runners on, U1 doesn't have 2nd base responsibility, U3 does (same as base hit when B becomes a BR). And BR can legally and safely overrun 1st, but is in jeopardy if she turns toward 2nd. Where is that next likely play? 90 to the base on the edge facing 2nd, and that is the proper positioning for the next likely play. Only after BR (now R) stops and this play ends should U1 take the position for the next play.

With R1 on 2nd, and U3 in B, U1 should still hold until all play has ended; standard rotaion has PU covering 3rd, U3 holding at 2nd, U1 holding at 1st with possible rotation to cover home.

With R1 on 3rd, U1 DOES have BR to 2nd, and must be prepared for that play. Then, and only then, is U1 to consider moving further off the line to prepare for that possible (1st and 3rd) play.

In the two umpire system, BU always has BR to 2nd; and should react accordingly,same as R1 on 3rd in 3 umpire system. Staying fully on the line in the two umpires system doesn't follow the NCAA guideline to prepare for the next possible play until each play has ended. It can only stem from those confusing 3 umpire mechanics with 2 umpire mechanics.

[MD Longhorn]

That makes sense ... knowing the guy who does that in our league, he probably either saw it on TV during an NCAA game and decided, "well, that's what they do in college, so that's what I should do", or someone else was describing the mechanic in NCAA and he decided to "big-time" it and adopt the mechanic.

Wouldn't be the first time...

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

It is an NCAA mechanic based on the three umpires system (the NCAA manual standard). When B walks with no runners on, U1 doesn't have 2nd base responsibility, U3 does (same as base hit when B becomes a BR). And BR can legally and safely overrun 1st, but is in jeopardy if she turns toward 2nd. Where is that next likely play? 90 to the base on the edge facing 2nd, and that is the proper positioning for the next likely play. Only after BR (now R) stops and this play ends should U1 take the position for the next play.

With R1 on 2nd, and U3 in B, U1 should still hold until all play has ended; standard rotaion has PU covering 3rd, U3 holding at 2nd, U1 holding at 1st with possible rotation to cover home.

With R1 on 3rd, U1 DOES have BR to 2nd, and must be prepared for that play. Then, and only then, is U1 to consider moving further off the line to prepare for that possible (1st and 3rd) play.

In the two umpire system, BU always has BR to 2nd; and should react accordingly,same as R1 on 3rd in 3 umpire system. Staying fully on the line in the two umpires system doesn't follow the NCAA guideline to prepare for the next possible play until each play has ended. It can only stem from those confusing 3 umpire mechanics with 2 umpire mechanics.

So, the only time U1 should stay at the line for a BB/HBP etc. is in 3 umpire mechanics.

[MNBlue]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

So, the only time U1 should stay at the line for a BB/HBP etc. is in 3 umpire mechanics.

The ball is dead on the HBP - no need to stay on the line in 2 umpire mechanics.

[argodad]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

So, the only time U1 should stay at the line for a BB/HBP etc. is in 3 umpire mechanics.

For 2-ump mechanics, on a BB with no runners, we teach BU to move into fair territory about a step or two and observe the BR until she stops at 1B.

[shipwreck]

Originally Posted by argodad

For 2-ump mechanics, on a BB with no runners, we teach BU to move into fair territory about a step or two and observe the BR until she stops at 1B.

That's the way I do it. As soon as the runner stops on first, I move to B position. Dave

[umpire12]

only moving 1 or 2 steps fair leaves you chasing the runner is she doesnt decide to stop and takes off for second base. i think it would be prefered move toward and be close to the B position while keeping your eyes on the runner as she nears first base

[MNBlue]

Originally Posted by umpire12

only moving 1 or 2 steps fair leaves you chasing the runner is she doesnt decide to stop and takes off for second base. i think it would be prefered move toward and be close to the B position while keeping your eyes on the runner as she nears first base

I disagree. It is completely age/player dependant, but in my experience the preponderance of players that walk, will round 1B and return or just stop on 1B. The most likely play will be a throw to F3 in an attempt to pick off the runner that is rounding 1B. A very small minority of players that receive a base on balls will continue to 2B - and those are usually with a runner on 3B.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by MNBlue

I disagree. It is completely age/player dependant, but in my experience the preponderance of players that walk, will round 1B and return or just stop on 1B. The most likely play will be a throw to F3 in an attempt to pick off the runner that is rounding 1B. A very small minority of players that receive a base on balls will continue to 2B - and those are usually with a runner on 3B.

I cannot recall the last time (any age, kids to HS) I've seen a pickoff attempted after a base on balls. That said, moving just 2 steps off the A position leaves you in a great place for that play should it develop, as you've said, but in a problematic place should the play go to 2nd. Moving further (halfway to B, say) decreases your situation for that rare play at first only a very very little bit, while vastly increasing your situation for the possible play at 2nd.