Forced runner retreating

Bluefoot · #1 (**permalink**) Wed Jun 04, 2003, 09:13am

Hello. I discovered this softball umpires forum two months ago. The intelligence and insight of the regular responders has made me a dilligent follower of the conversations and information posted here. This site is great, as are you people who help with answers, advice, and opinions. Needless to say this is my first post here.

I am a veteran Men's Rec SP player, and this is my first year as an ASA SP Umpire in Connecticut. I enjoy being involved in the game, either as a player or an ump, and this board has helped my education.

This happened in my game last night. R1 on 2B, R2 on 1B, no outs. Ground ball is hit to F5, who fields the ball. As R1 approaches F5, R1 stops as F5 tries to make a play on him, but misses tagging him. R1 then takes two steps back towards 2B, as F5 lunges at him high for tag, but misses again. R1 ducks completely under F5 and runs towards 3B. (Amazingly, R1 has done all of this while staying in the baseline) R1 and F5 race to 3B, where F5 just beats R1 to 3B in a bang-bang play. F5 is out on the force.

My question is this: Should R1 have been out when he stepped back towards 2B?

Rule 8.3.D states that runners can't run bases in reverse order to confuse fielders. In this situation, the runner is not trying to confuse the fielder, he's trying to avoid being tagged out, although it may seem confusing to the 3B.

Rule 8.2.H states that the batter-runner can't step back towards home plate to avoid or delay a fielder's tag. Does this apply to the R1 above, since he's forced to 3B and the play is being made on him?

What's the right call? Thanks in advance.

Dakota · #2 (**permalink**) Wed Jun 04, 2003, 09:26am

Welcome to the board,

and to the "dark side!"

Sounds like you made the right call. If R1 did not deviate more than 3' on either side of his base path, then he was OK. Rule 8-2H only applies to a batter-runner. Runners can always retreat to avoid a tag. That's what is going on in a run down.

kono · #3 (**permalink**) Wed Jun 04, 2003, 09:27am

I believe that you are correct. The runner has done nothing illegal.

Where are you umping in CT???

-Kono

Bluefoot · #4 (**permalink**) Wed Jun 04, 2003, 09:39am

That was in Clinton. I also work Essex, Deep River and the shorline in this part of the state.

kono · #5 (**permalink**) Wed Jun 04, 2003, 09:48am

Nice part of the state to be in. My daughter has played in a few tournaments down there over the years. I do Little League (baseball & softball) in Terryville. Yeah, I know - Where's that??.

Welcome to the board.

-Kono

greymule · #6 (**permalink**) Wed Jun 04, 2003, 10:35am

I have seen ASA umpires wrongly call forced runners out for retreating the way you describe. They are confusing themselves with another rule, which applies only to a batter runner who steps backward between home and 1B to avoid or delay a tag. (It's considered a form of interference and is treated as such.)

My favorite part of Connecticut is the northwest corner, Lakeville specifically.

kono · #7 (**permalink**) Wed Jun 04, 2003, 10:45am

Quote:

Originally posted by greymule
My favorite part of Connecticut is the northwest corner, Lakeville specifically.

There's a lot of good fishing in that part of the state.

IRISHMAFIA · #8 (**permalink**) Wed Jun 04, 2003, 11:39am

Quote:

Originally posted by kono

Quote:

Originally posted by greymule
My favorite part of Connecticut is the northwest corner, Lakeville specifically.

There's a lot of good fishing in that part of the state.

My favorite part of Connecticut is any highway which will allow me to pass through without stopping.

Too costly, especially fuel. Someone's got to pay for those insurance companies to stay there

JMHO,

IRISHMAFIA · #9 (**permalink**) Wed Jun 04, 2003, 11:51am

Quote:

Originally posted by Bluefoot
Hello. I discovered this softball umpires forum two months ago. The intelligence and insight of the regular responders has made me a dilligent follower of the conversations and information posted here. This site is great, as are you people who help with answers, advice, and opinions. Needless to say this is my first post here.

I am a veteran Men's Rec SP player, and this is my first year as an ASA SP Umpire in Connecticut. I enjoy being involved in the game, either as a player or an ump, and this board has helped my education.

This happened in my game last night. R1 on 2B, R2 on 1B, no outs. Ground ball is hit to F5, who fields the ball. As R1 approaches F5, R1 stops as F5 tries to make a play on him, but misses tagging him. R1 then takes two steps back towards 2B, as F5 lunges at him high for tag, but misses again. R1 ducks completely under F5 and runs towards 3B. (Amazingly, R1 has done all of this while staying in the baseline) R1 and F5 race to 3B, where F5 just beats R1 to 3B in a bang-bang play. F5 is out on the force.

My question is this: Should R1 have been out when he stepped back towards 2B?

Rule 8.3.D states that runners can't run bases in reverse order to confuse fielders. In this situation, the runner is not trying to confuse the fielder, he's trying to avoid being tagged out, although it may seem confusing to the 3B.

Rule 8.2.H states that the batter-runner can't step back towards home plate to avoid or delay a fielder's tag. Does this apply to the R1 above, since he's forced to 3B and the play is being made on him?

What's the right call? Thanks in advance.

Welcome to the board.

Please note that 8.3 is "Touch Bases In Legal Order". It pertains to the progression of a runner, not the runner's actions of avoiding being put out.

When it comes to running and avoiding a tag it is the "basepath", not the baseline. See definitions for the difference.

I'm sure you meant to say that F5 made the put out at 3B. Watch out for the sharks around here.

We are serious about our softball, but not beyond having a little fun picking on fresh meat. Oh, okay, we actually will pick on anyone!

whiskers_ump · #10 (**permalink**) Wed Jun 04, 2003, 05:29pm

Finally got this thing working again. Being trying for a
week to send the little smiley things.

Welcome to the board Bluefoot.

Since your question has been answered that is about all I
can say.

glen

kono · #11 (**permalink**) Thu Jun 05, 2003, 07:30am

[QUOTE]Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA

Quote:

My favorite part of Connecticut is any highway which will allow me to pass through without stopping.

Too costly, especially fuel. Someone's got to pay for those insurance companies to stay there

JMHO,

Ummmm Mike... Wanna take a guess where I work????

I'll give you a clue - our logo used to be a red umbrella until a certain large bank spun us off and kept the umbrella.

-Kono

WillyS · #12 (**permalink**) Thu Jun 05, 2003, 08:22am

Bluefoot, welcome.

I too am from CT. Reside in Niantic and work for the Eastern Board.
I do mostly high school fastpitch and shoreline tournaments in the summer. I'm working a 2nd round Class L state game today as PU.
I don't do SP very much much, since I'm still very active playing.
I played in Clinton about three years ago. There was an Ump who always worked the games in work boots, short guy, can't remember his name(Mel maybe?). Is he still around?

Good Luck and don't let the jerks get to you.

kono · #13 (**permalink**) Thu Jun 05, 2003, 08:26am

Quote:

Originally posted by WillyS
I do mostly high school fastpitch and shoreline tournaments in the summer. I'm working a 2nd round Class L state game today as PU.

Would my daughter have been upset with you too????

If you don't know what I am talking about, check out the bruised ump thread.

-Kono

Bluefoot · #14 (**permalink**) Thu Jun 05, 2003, 08:47am

WillyS:

I believe that you are referring to Mal, who has worn boots on occasion. He is a regular fixture there.

So far it is going well. I've actually been complimented by both teams after games I've worked. Mostly because I'm always hustling around to make every call. Many local umps here make all of their calls from behind the plate. Which is one of the biggest reasons I decided to become an ump. So far, I've been lucky with no major squabbles, but I know that they will happen. Half of the people are unhappy with the close calls no matter what, but if I've ran to the spot to get the best view possible, the teams seem to respect that. What I have been surprised with are the very few players who have no concept of the defined strike zone, and complain about balls/strikes based on where a pitch lands. I try to be non-confrontational and consistent, which I think also has been recognized. I'm actually enjoying it as much as playing, and I've found that my hustling around as an ump can be more physically challenging than playing. Just getting into proper position for every pitch adds up to a workout. I wonder what I'll feel like after a 4-game Sunday morning?

WillyS · #15 (**permalink**) Thu Jun 05, 2003, 09:50am

Kono,
Not at all.
I learned many years ago about the value of The Armor.
We, unfortunately have a guy on our board that does games "naked". We refer to him as Dancing Bear.

I have also just been notified that I have been selected to be PU on a 1/4 final game. Good stuff.

Bluefoot,
Sounds like you have the making of a good Umpire. No one can legitimately complain about an Umpire who hustles and gets into position. The lazy/rocking chair Umps drive me nuts.
Good Luck to you. Hopefully our paths will cross.