Thought I knew this, but now I'm doubting myself...

[AlabamaBlue]

Was working an 8U game last week, and there was a runner on 1st with less than 2 outs. Batter hit a grounder to F3, and R1 froze on 1st. F3 tags the base, then R1 takes off running, she get's thrown out easily at 2nd.

Anyway, partner and I were talking between innings, and I said they should have tagged R1, then touched the base for the DP. Partner says that R1 would be safe on 1st until BR touched 1st, but I thought she was forced to advance as soon as the ball was hit and was no longer safe on 1st.

Should be an easy one, but there you go.

[kono]

She was forced to run until BR was put out. At that point, she could have stayed on the base. You mention that she was thrown out a second - did they tag her??? Once BR is put out, it's not a force anymore.

-Kono

[AlabamaBlue]

Oh yeah, she was tagged out. Give me some credit here

When we started discussing it I was 100% certain I was right, but this was a more experienced umpire telling me I was wrong, so I started doubting myself.

[CecilOne]

In an earlier thread, I said "authority is not the same as accuracy", so now I'll add "experience is not the same as expertise".

[Dakota]

You were right, AB. Once the batter bacame a batter-runner, R1 no longer was safe standing on 1st. She could have been tagged out at that point.

Once F3 touched 1B to put the BR out, however, R1 was safe on 1st and could have stayed there.

BTW, Cecil, "experience is not the same as expertise" works both ways .

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by AlabamaBlue

Partner says that R1 would be safe on 1st until BR touched 1st, but I thought she was forced to advance as soon as the ball was hit and was no longer safe on 1st.

Say what? If that were true, it would be impossible to a 2B to 1B double play. You must have misunderstood what he was stating, or he needs a little work on his understanding the rules.

[bobbrix]

(Nice to see I'm not the only one that doubts myself on the "basics" every now and then. Had a real brain freeze last night on a long, caught foul fly, got away with it, though... I'll post it if I get a chance.)

Anyway, AlabamaBlue, permit me to offer up a different scenario with the same rule (i.e. with bases loaded):

- Bases loaded.
- Batter hits grounder to F3 who tags 1st base bag(BR out).
- F3 immediately throws home, so runner coming home stops
and retreats back to 3rd base. Her retreat back to 3rd
forces the other two runners back to 2nd and to 1st.

Catcher did not throw the ball anywhere else, just held
it as the runners scattered back to where they began.

So, in the end, the three runners were only forced until the BR was forced out at 1st. After that, the force is gone, so they don't "have to" advance.

So, for this play, one out and all others safe, bases still loaded.

Everyone agree ?

[AlabamaBlue]

Definately. It wasn't a question of the force being removed, it was a question of whether or not R1 could be tagged out while still on 1st before BR was put out.

[SamNVa]

AB,

It sounds to me like your partner du jour was probably confusing the "two runners on the same base" rule with the force play rule and thinking that R1 was allowed to remain on the base until the BR actually got there.

SamC

[Edited by SamNVa on Jun 2nd, 2003 at 12:03 PM]

[AlabamaBlue]

That was probably what she was thinking.

[Rick Vietti]

Wow - 8U - Two Person system - And you get paid? Such a deal.

[AlabamaBlue]

Rick, it's usually just 1 ump, but this was the league championship and the league requested 2.

[Rick Vietti]

Great - Our local leagues have parents call 8u and we start calling on 10u and up. Our league championships will have 2 umps starting this week.

The joy of kids at that age are that they are so cute and fun to be around but weird plays do happen in those games

[CecilOne]

Originally posted by SamNVa
It sounds to me like your partner du jour was probably confusing the "two runners on the same base" rule with the force play rule and thinking that R1 was allowed to remain on the base until the BR actually got there.

PDJ = "partner du jour", although these days I don't care to see any French.

In a non-force, isn't the lead runner entitled to a base regardless of the trail runner?

[CecilOne]

Originally posted by Dakota
... snip ... BTW, Cecil, "experience is not the same as expertise" works both ways .

If that means you can have expertise without experience, ok. If not, please explain. If so, the "authority is not the same as accuracy" would also work in reverse.