The Official Forum

The Official Forum (https://forum.officiating.com/)
-   Softball (https://forum.officiating.com/softball/)
-   -   Legal Safety Grip? (https://forum.officiating.com/softball/85178-legal-safety-grip.html)

NCASAUmp Wed Jan 04, 2012 12:46pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by CelticNHBlue (Post 810412)
I agree that the rule was probably written with the understanding that it would/should start at the knob, and it should be specific if that is what is desired, however, I could imagine where a petite player may purchase a larger bat but always choke up... just sayin'

I agree, and that's why ASA allows for up to 15" of grip tape. If she has to choke up any higher than that, she's got the wrong bat.

IRISHMAFIA Mon Jan 16, 2012 11:16pm

Received an e-mail today from member NUS concerning my question.

He agrees that over the past couple of reworking of the rule defining the bat the wording which would require one end of the safety tape/grip to abut the portion of the bat defined as the safety knob.

He suggested this would be addressed next November.

NCASAUmp Tue Jan 17, 2012 07:37am

Quote:

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA (Post 814065)
Received an e-mail today from member NUS concerning my question.

He agrees that over the past couple of reworking of the rule defining the bat the wording which would require one end of the safety tape/grip to abut the portion of the bat defined as the safety knob.

He suggested this would be addressed next November.

So, in other words, not legal?

IRISHMAFIA Tue Jan 17, 2012 07:51am

Quote:

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp (Post 814146)
So, in other words, not legal?

Correct, just that if challenged, we (umpires) have nothing to back up that position at this moment.

EsqUmp Sat Jan 21, 2012 12:46am

Quote:

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA (Post 814148)
Correct, just that if challenged, we (umpires) have nothing to back up that position at this moment.

Actually we have the rule that empowers umpires to rule on anything no specifically addressed in the rule book. No one seems to ever read that rule.

:confused:

IRISHMAFIA Sat Jan 21, 2012 09:43am

Quote:

Originally Posted by EsqUmp (Post 815332)
Actually we have the rule that empowers umpires to rule on anything no specifically addressed in the rule book. No one seems to ever read that rule.

:confused:

That would be true if the location of the safety grip were NOT mentioned in the rules. But it is, so that option would not apply. Hopefully, now that the NUS is aware of the wording lost over the past couple years, there will be a clarification.

EsqUmp Sun Jan 22, 2012 12:46am

Quote:

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA (Post 815413)
That would be true if the location of the safety grip were NOT mentioned in the rules. But it is, so that option would not apply. Hopefully, now that the NUS is aware of the wording lost over the past couple years, there will be a clarification.

Does the rule specifically address the location of the grip? I bet if it did, this discussion would have died a long time ago. If it didn't, then I guess the umpires can make a ruling. I'd hate to see an umpire make a decision that wasn't fed to him by the rule book.

IRISHMAFIA Sun Jan 22, 2012 10:24am

Quote:

Originally Posted by EsqUmp (Post 815560)
Does the rule specifically address the location of the grip? I bet if it did, this discussion would have died a long time ago. If it didn't, then I guess the umpires can make a ruling. I'd hate to see an umpire make a decision that wasn't fed to him by the rule book.

While it is true there are some, not every umpire is a complete idiot and needs every little thing to be pointed out in the rule book. If that was necessary, we would need a cart to transport the tome to clinics and tournaments.

The rule involving the grip tape is specific, you must apply it to the handle of the bat. There you go, the rule offers the size and location to which it must be attached.

Let me take this another step. What are you going to do if a batter presents a bat with multiple Grip-N-Rip type of bat attachments attached with legally applied grip tape at various points on the handle?

While it seems obvious to us and most of the world that it SHOULD abut the knob, the rule does not support such a requirement. And since the rule DOES offer the mandated size restrictions and locations, IT is covered in the rule book which negates any perceived authority to rule otherwise without further direction. And I only raised the question to the NUS asking for clarification. Personally, I don't really care and I'm not sure ASA does or should. They've dropped the word "safety" from the portion of the bat description and there really isn't any wording requiring the batter to actually grip the bat on the grip, never has been.

And for someone who stands on "intent" of the rule over the wording, you seem to be approaching the OOO side on this one.

EsqUmp Tue Jan 24, 2012 01:35pm

Since "intent" was brought up . . . the intent of the rule is to keep the bat from (1) slipping and (2) being turned into a projectile. Hence the reason they call it a "safety grip" and put a knob on the bat for further assurance.

The same year that ASA changed some of the requirements for the bat, it specifically stated, "No bare metal may be exposed in the area covered by safety grip." Now what good would it do to have a bat with a grip that started 6 inches from the knob? If that was ASA's intent, then it would logically follow that ASA also would have said that a knob isn't required when the safety grip starts more than an inch from the knob. Of course, that is ludicrous.

That same rule also states, "The safety grip can be made of cork, tape or other synthetic material and must be permanently attached and cover the handle region of the bat." I would rule that the safety grip is NOT "covering" the handle region, but is merely affixed to that region.

Nevertheless, I would deem the bat unsafe and not allow it. I don't mind making a tough decision and irritating a coach, especially when I am erring on the side of caution. I'd rather explain to my interpreter/assignor/UIC why I didn't allow it than to a jury as to why I did.

I would also rule that based upon my experience, review of non-approved and approved bat lists, that the bat was altered.

IRISHMAFIA Tue Jan 24, 2012 07:20pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by EsqUmp (Post 816297)
Since "intent" was brought up . . . the intent of the rule is to keep the bat from (1) slipping and (2) being turned into a projectile. Hence the reason they call it a "safety grip" and put a knob on the bat for further assurance.

The same year that ASA changed some of the requirements for the bat, it specifically stated, "No bare metal may be exposed in the area covered by safety grip." Now what good would it do to have a bat with a grip that started 6 inches from the knob? If that was ASA's intent, then it would logically follow that ASA also would have said that a knob isn't required when the safety grip starts more than an inch from the knob. Of course, that is ludicrous.

That same rule also states, "The safety grip can be made of cork, tape or other synthetic material and must be permanently attached and cover the handle region of the bat." I would rule that the safety grip is NOT "covering" the handle region, but is merely affixed to that region.

Nevertheless, I would deem the bat unsafe and not allow it. I don't mind making a tough decision and irritating a coach, especially when I am erring on the side of caution. I'd rather explain to my interpreter/assignor/UIC why I didn't allow it than to a jury as to why I did.

I would also rule that based upon my experience, review of non-approved and approved bat lists, that the bat was altered.

Again, the term "safety" is gone from 3.1. The only time the word "safe" appears is as a reference to a multi-piece bat with interchangeable parts. Nor is there any such comment as that bolded area above. The rule just says that the handle must have a grip which can be anywhere from 6" to 15" inches in length, yet does not address the permissible length of the handle. That must mean there is an allowance for bare metal, composite, wood or whatever the handle is made of. Also, there is no rule requiring the batter to hold the bat on the grip, so the batter can have a 6" grip and still hold the bat with both hands and not be on the grip tape.

And there is no longer a ban using a cone attachment or "coning" the knob end of the bat with tape, so a "its for safety" argument has been seriously weakened with the multiple changes over the past few years.

I believe the "knob" requirment will always be there as a matter of ASA supporting the manufacturing of a bat which "would" be safer if the players did not change the characteristics of the handle.

We will see sometime this year if this was an oversight or not.

BretMan Tue Jan 24, 2012 08:52pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by EsqUmp (Post 816297)
I would also rule that based upon my experience, review of non-approved and approved bat lists, that the bat was altered.

What about this makes you think it is an altered bat? :confused:

An illegal bat, maybe (pending further clarification of the rule as discussed above).

EsqUmp Wed Jan 25, 2012 01:21pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BretMan (Post 816393)
What about this makes you think it is an altered bat? :confused:

An illegal bat, maybe (pending further clarification of the rule as discussed above).

The fact that in all my years playing, coaching and umpiring as well as researching issues pertaining to bats I've never come across one even remotely resembling one with that type of bat handle. In order to get the handle like that the handle would have to be altered from its original condition. That isn't to say such a bat can't exist and merely be illegal, but I would think the odds would not be in favor of that conclusion.

NCASAUmp Wed Jan 25, 2012 01:31pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by EsqUmp (Post 816568)
The fact that in all my years playing, coaching and umpiring as well as researching issues pertaining to bats I've never come across one even remotely resembling one with that type of bat handle. In order to get the handle like that the handle would have to be altered from its original condition. That isn't to say such a bat can't exist and merely be illegal, but I would think the odds would not be in favor of that conclusion.

I'm failing to see what you're talking about.

What, specifically, looks altered to you? Be specific, as the difference between a batter stepping into the batter's box with an illegal bat versus an altered bat is huge. If I'm going to use the term "altered" in front of a player, I'd better be damn sure I can point to something specific and say, "this is where it's been altered."

EsqUmp Wed Jan 25, 2012 02:33pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp (Post 816580)
I'm failing to see what you're talking about.

What, specifically, looks altered to you? Be specific, as the difference between a batter stepping into the batter's box with an illegal bat versus an altered bat is huge. If I'm going to use the term "altered" in front of a player, I'd better be damn sure I can point to something specific and say, "this is where it's been altered."

The fact that the bat grip has been moved up several inches from the original position.

NCASAUmp Wed Jan 25, 2012 02:37pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by EsqUmp (Post 816611)
The fact that the bat grip has been moved up several inches from the original position.

So you're saying that the safety grip is part of the physical structure of a bat?

What if I add more safety tape? Wouldn't that also be changing the physical structure?


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:04am.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1