Whats the call - Page 2

IRISHMAFIA · #16 (**permalink**) Mon May 05, 2003, 02:04pm

Quote:

Originally posted by ChampaignBlue
A:If R1 did not touch 3rd then: If anyone but R1 tagged 1st then BR and R2 out. If R1 tagged 1st then R1 out on the force and BR out.

B:If R1 touched 3rd then all forces off and R2 and BR out.

Huh? In B I assumed that when you say "touched 3rd" you mean R1 was not the 1st player tagged. If not, R2 is entitled to 2B and cannot be ruled out if in contact with the base when tagged.

CecilOne · #17 (**permalink**) Mon May 05, 2003, 02:35pm

The play:
"runners on 1st and 2nd with no outs, when the #4 hitter drives this towering shot ... snip ... F9 follows the flight of the ball into the wall, and makes a relatively easy catch as it comes off the wall. The 1st base coach (who was at the plate meeting) is yelling for the BR to go to 2nd, meanwhile, the 3rd base coach (who was not at the plate meeting) is yelling for R1 to go back to 2nd. R2, who is now at 2nd, sees runners coming at her from both directions, so she freezes on 2nd and we end up with 3 runners on 2nd base. In the meantime, F9 has played the ball into F4 who dutifully tags all three runners, and I banged two of them out."

OK, so BR/R3 is out regardless. R1 is out if tagged first as a force out.
If BR/R3 is tagged after 1st base, the force is not removed because the force is only BR going to 1st, R2 going to 2nd, R1 going to 3rd. I don't see how R2 can be out if R2 was forced to 2nd by the BR, beats the tag there and stays there.

[Edited by CecilOne on May 5th, 2003 at 02:39 PM]

SamNVa · #18 (**permalink**) Mon May 05, 2003, 03:00pm

The order of the tags was BR, R2, and R1. R1 never maade it to 3rd; she stopped about 2 steps short and turned around and went back to 2nd, (Aside: the reason all of the runners were able to make it to 2nd was because F6 was hanging out near the circle figuring she was going to act as a cutoff I presume, and F4 went a short way into right field to get the rhrow from F9 who had no arm )
Anyway, I called the BR out and R1 out, figuring the the BR should have been on 1st, and R1 should have been on 3rd.

SamC

[Edited by SamNVa on May 5th, 2003 at 03:02 PM]

CecilOne · #19 (**permalink**) Mon May 05, 2003, 03:50pm

Quote:

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA
In what order where the runners tagged and did R1 ever touch 3B?

What are you looking for in the sequence of tags?

IRISHMAFIA · #20 (**permalink**) Mon May 05, 2003, 04:09pm

Quote:

Originally posted by CecilOne

Quote:

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA
In what order where the runners tagged and did R1 ever touch 3B?

What are you looking for in the sequence of tags?

With the BR/R tagged first, there is no longer a force. Since R1 never touched 3B, she still owns 2B once the force is removed. Since the trailing runner was tagged, R2 may now legally retreat to 1B.

Without some amazing act by one of the runners, I don't know if it would make that much of a difference of which runner was where, it is still going to result in a runner on 2B with two outs.

I just thought it would be fun to toss around.

CecilOne · #21 (**permalink**) Mon May 05, 2003, 06:19pm

Right, but why is the force removed if the BR has already reached 1st? Does she have a "right" to 2nd?

bluezebra · #22 (**permalink**) Mon May 05, 2003, 07:38pm

1..If ball is trapped, give "safe" sign.
2..If ball is caught, signal and verbalize "OUT" or "CATCH".
3..If trapped, R1 is forced to advance. If R1 and BR are both on 1B, R1 is out when tagged.
4..If caught, R1 is out if tagged off base, safe if not.

Bob

IRISHMAFIA · #23 (**permalink**) Tue May 06, 2003, 10:42am

Quote:

Originally posted by CecilOne
Right, but why is the force removed if the BR has already reached 1st? Does she have a "right" to 2nd?

The reason it is a force is because the immediate preceding runners have no safe haven and must leave the base to allow for the BR. If the BR/R is ruled out, then there is an unoccupied base which, if for some odd reason, is available for a runner to return.

The same reason as when you have a runner forced to vacate 1B and a runner who refuses, though forced, to advance to 3B and both end up on 2B. The defense can force the runner at 3B or tag that runner while in contact with 2B. However, if the runner coming from 1B attempts to retreat (to an occupied base) and is tagged while off the base, the preceding runner is no longer forced to go to 3B and if they attempted to do so, the runner would have to be tagged off the base to be declared out.

CecilOne · #24 (**permalink**) Tue May 06, 2003, 11:39am

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I still don't think the preceding runner(s) have to vacate second base for the BR.

IRISHMAFIA · #25 (**permalink**) Tue May 06, 2003, 11:43am

Quote:

Originally posted by CecilOne
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I still don't think the preceding runner(s) have to vacate second base for the BR.

I don't ever remember saying that they did. I just stated that in a force situation, if a trailing runner is put out, it alleviates the force on preceding runners.

SamNVa · #26 (**permalink**) Tue May 06, 2003, 12:51pm

CecilOne,

Look at it this way, since R1 never touched 3rd, she never relinquished her claim to 2nd base by rule 8.3.3 (FED). Now since the BR was tagged out first, R2 could legally retreat to 1st since it is now oppen, so technically, R1 still "owns" 2nd so R2 is the runner who should be declared out.

SamC

CecilOne · #27 (**permalink**) Tue May 06, 2003, 01:07pm

Quote:

Originally posted by SamNVa
CecilOne,

Look at it this way, since R1 never touched 3rd, she never relinquished her claim to 2nd base by rule 8.3.3 (FED). Now since the BR was tagged out first, R2 could legally retreat to 1st since it is now oppen, so technically, R1 still "owns" 2nd so R2 is the runner who should be declared out.

SamC

I get what you are saying, but it seems to me that BR tagged out only matters if she has not reached 1st base and she did, so the other runners are forced to a next base (R2 to 2nd, forcing R1 to 3rd). If R1 is forced to 3rd as I believe, isn't she out if tagged anywhere else?

IRISHMAFIA · #28 (**permalink**) Tue May 06, 2003, 04:02pm

Quote:

Originally posted by CecilOne

Quote:

Originally posted by SamNVa
CecilOne,

Look at it this way, since R1 never touched 3rd, she never relinquished her claim to 2nd base by rule 8.3.3 (FED). Now since the BR was tagged out first, R2 could legally retreat to 1st since it is now oppen, so technically, R1 still "owns" 2nd so R2 is the runner who should be declared out.

SamC

I get what you are saying, but it seems to me that BR tagged out only matters if she has not reached 1st base and she did, so the other runners are forced to a next base (R2 to 2nd, forcing R1 to 3rd). If R1 is forced to 3rd as I believe, isn't she out if tagged anywhere else?

Not if any of the following runners have been put out prior to her being tagged if in contact with a base.

SamNVa · #29 (**permalink**) Tue May 06, 2003, 04:21pm

Cecil,

I can certainly see your point, after all, that's the way I called it on the field. I was just trying to explain why Mike's suggested solution could be correct as well. Either way, you end up with 2 outs and a runner on 2nd and I'm willing to bet that no one except possibly another umpire is going to know or even care which runner ends up there.

SamC