foul ball conflict

[Little Jimmy]

Been a long time since I've been here. This happened this evening. Fed varsity game. I'm plate. No one on. Partner in A position. Girl hits ball deep and on the line down first. Partner starts moving toward infield. No actual chalk line to go by but in my judgement the ball hits fair. I give a strong pointing fair sign. I give a second strong sign when I hear my partner yell "foul ball". Offensive team is saying to runner "keep going, umps pointing fair". Defense is saying "base ump says foul". I know what I saw and continue pointing fair. Runner makes it to third. Defense argues but I say "it was my call,play stands". No major arguments because defense is ahead by 12 at the time.

My real question is what would you have done in this situation? Partner was near the infield when he made his call. We discussed me taking all fair/foul calls before the game. No major incident occured but I don't think either of us looked good. After the game he said he shouldn't have said anything, but should I have let his verbal call override my opinion? thanks for the reply.

[blue]

If my partner calls "foul ball", I'm moving my hand from indicating fair to hands up and "foul ball". Your partner is wrong to make the call, but once he does make it, then the damage is done. I would go along with foul ball, and in between innings I would let him know that it's my call to make, not his.

[Dakota]

I agree - "FOUL BALL" is the classic "can't unring the bell" call. Take your situation with a close score and an excited coach on defense. How do you rectify that your partner stopped the defense with his call, and allowed a routine hit to turn into a triple?

While it is not "fair" (pardon the pun) to take away a hit from the offense, the best you can do (most of the time - there are situations where you can determine what would have happened) is to take the path of least damage, and that would be to let the foul ball call stand.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by Little Jimmy
Been a long time since I've been here. This happened this evening. Fed varsity game. I'm plate. No one on. Partner in A position. Girl hits ball deep and on the line down first. Partner starts moving toward infield. No actual chalk line to go by but in my judgement the ball hits fair. I give a strong pointing fair sign. I give a second strong sign when I hear my partner yell "foul ball". Offensive team is saying to runner "keep going, umps pointing fair". Defense is saying "base ump says foul". I know what I saw and continue pointing fair. Runner makes it to third. Defense argues but I say "it was my call,play stands". No major arguments because defense is ahead by 12 at the time.

My real question is what would you have done in this situation? Partner was near the infield when he made his call. We discussed me taking all fair/foul calls before the game. No major incident occured but I don't think either of us looked good. After the game he said he shouldn't have said anything, but should I have let his verbal call override my opinion? thanks for the reply.

Your partner was correct, he shouldn't have said ANYTHING! You had no choice, but to follow his verbal call. Players act upon what they hear or don't hear. They don't turn to see an umpire's signal before continuing with a play.

Foul ball.

[Tap]

I agree that if it's a very close call, you're stuck w/ the foul call. Can't unring the bell.

But at what point could it be a correctible error? If it clearly was fair and was erroneously called foul, and the defense had no chance of putting the B-R out at 1B since it was hit deep into the OF, couldn't the umpires place the B-R where she would have been but for the erroneous call, especially if the wrong umpire made the call? That would likely be 1B or 2B here (as opposed to 3B, since the defense stopped playing in reliance on the BU).

We discussed a play at the ASA national school in Atlanta where the B-R put down a great bunt (no one on base) that appeared to be rolling foul. She clearly had it beat out. The fielder just let it roll, it was called foul by the umpire, then it rolled back onto the line, thus fair. I believe the consensus was that the umpires could correct their error and put leave the B-R on 1B, as the defense did not attempt to make a play and the foul call occurred after it was clear that the B-R had made or would have made 1B.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by Tap
I agree that if it's a very close call, you're stuck w/ the foul call. Can't unring the bell.

But at what point could it be a correctible error? If it clearly was fair and was erroneously called foul, and the defense had no chance of putting the B-R out at 1B since it was hit deep into the OF, couldn't the umpires place the B-R where she would have been but for the erroneous call, especially if the wrong umpire made the call? That would likely be 1B or 2B here (as opposed to 3B, since the defense stopped playing in reliance on the BU).

We discussed a play at the ASA national school in Atlanta where the B-R put down a great bunt (no one on base) that appeared to be rolling foul. She clearly had it beat out. The fielder just let it roll, it was called foul by the umpire, then it rolled back onto the line, thus fair. I believe the consensus was that the umpires could correct their error and put leave the B-R on 1B, as the defense did not attempt to make a play and the foul call occurred after it was clear that the B-R had made or would have made 1B.

And what happens when the player who had this bunt "beat out" keeps going to 2B. This is not unusual when a defense allows a ball to roll toward foul territory. If this happens and the defense picks up the ball and guns the runner out at 2B, are you going to rule the runner out, place her back at 1B or stick with the foul call? No matter what you do, you will be wrong. If you leave the runner on, the defense will protest (yes, they can)that the original call cause their players to ease up and not contact the ball while in foul ground as it is unnecessary as the umpire already ruled on the ball.

If you rule the runner out, the offense will complain that the call caused the runner to ease up after rounding 1B as the umpire already ruled on the ball.

Fair/foul is not a situational call. If you call it foul, it's foul. It may not be right, it may not be fair to the team, but it is foul.

Now, the reason a protest is possible here is because the moment the umpire decides to allow a runner on base on a ball ruled foul, it is no longer a judgment of fair or foul, but an interpretation of what constitutes a fair or foul ball.

The only way I see correcting an inaccurate "foul" call would be if the "fair" batted ball went directly out of play prior to the defense having the opportunity to field the ball (i.e. line drive off 1st/3rd base ricochet directly into DBT).

[CecilOne]

This is the essence of the situation:
"If you call it foul, it's foul. It may not be right, it may not be fair to the team, but it is foul."
Just like any other bad call. You can't "unblow the whistle" (couldn't think of a sport using a bell).

The question of "wrong umpire made the call" has no bearing on the game. That's a mechanic, not a rule.

[CecilOne]

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA
... snip ... (i.e. line drive off 1st/3rd base ricochet directly into DBT).

Or maybe a home run?

[Dakota]

Originally posted by CecilOne

Or maybe a home run?

Situations like these are what I meant by

situations where you can determine what would have happened

.

They aren't the norm. The norm is, once a batted ball is called foul, it remains foul.

[scottk_61]

Originally posted by Tap

We discussed a play at the ASA national school in Atlanta where the B-R put down a great bunt (no one on base) that appeared to be rolling foul. She clearly had it beat out. The fielder just let it roll, it was called foul by the umpire, then it rolled back onto the line, thus fair. I believe the consensus was that the umpires could correct their error and put leave the B-R on 1B, as the defense did not attempt to make a play and the foul call occurred after it was clear that the B-R had made or would have made 1B.

Hmm, I was there and don't remember this play coming up at all. Who was leading this discussion?

[Tap]

Henry posed the scenario in the afternoon (can't recall if Sat. or Sun.) when we were inside sitting down at the tables. He wanted to emphasize that we should not call foul until the ball was done moving. At the time, the other 1/2 of the entire group was either in the gym or outside, so you probably were in the other 1/2.
[Now that I think about it, I'm not sure it was an intentional bunt -- may have been a "swinging bunt" so it could apply to SP as well].

I asked a follow-up question about whether it could be a correctible error. I recall that the answer was yes, but I could be mistaken, as it was at the end of the day and we all were tired.

[scottk_61]

Originally posted by Tap
Henry posed the scenario in the afternoon (can't recall if Sat. or Sun.) when we were inside sitting down at the tables. He wanted to emphasize that we should not call foul until the ball was done moving. At the time, the other 1/2 of the entire group was either in the gym or outside, so you probably were in the other 1/2.
[Now that I think about it, I'm not sure it was an intentional bunt -- may have been a "swinging bunt" so it could apply to SP as well].

I asked a follow-up question about whether it could be a correctible error. I recall that the answer was yes, but I could be mistaken, as it was at the end of the day and we all were tired.

Ok, I just know that I didn't remember this one, we had a pretty good time there in Atlanta.
I drove over 8 hours just to go to this school and figured that I had probably missed something.

[Andy]

Originally posted by Tap
I agree that if it's a very close call, you're stuck w/ the foul call. Can't unring the bell.

But at what point could it be a correctible error? If it clearly was fair and was erroneously called foul, and the defense had no chance of putting the B-R out at 1B since it was hit deep into the OF, couldn't the umpires place the B-R where she would have been but for the erroneous call, especially if the wrong umpire made the call? That would likely be 1B or 2B here (as opposed to 3B, since the defense stopped playing in reliance on the BU).

We discussed a play at the ASA national school in Atlanta where the B-R put down a great bunt (no one on base) that appeared to be rolling foul. She clearly had it beat out. The fielder just let it roll, it was called foul by the umpire, then it rolled back onto the line, thus fair. I believe the consensus was that the umpires could correct their error and put leave the B-R on 1B, as the defense did not attempt to make a play and the foul call occurred after it was clear that the B-R had made or would have made 1B.

I think we beat the snot out of this question on McGriff's last season. I don't remember ever coming to a concensus, but I was in the "can't unring the bell" camp. Once a batted ball is called foul by the umpire...it is forever a foul ball.