proper position

[arkblue]

Had a call tonight that is weighing on my mind. The problem is I don't know how prevent the situation so I will rely on the experts here.

ASA fastpitch league, and my partner and I are working two-man mechanics. One out, Runners on 1st and 2nd and I am behind the shortstop to her right or cheating a little to third base in case of a steal attempt.

Ball is hit to the second baseman. She field it cleanly and sticks her glove out towards the runner on first going to second. Her glove is stuck out about 2 steps before the runner gets to her. So the runner has not passed her yet. After the runner passes she throws to second.

I stay outside the infield because the ball is not in the outfield. While I don't see the glove or her arms move due to the tag, her glove is out there in plenty of time as the runner tries to do some dodging as she runs toward second. She dodges toward the inside of the base path so I am sort of shielded from the tag. I call the runner out due to a tag and then call the out at first (which is obvious) for a double play.

Coach at first doesn't complain but says that the fielder missed the tag easily (like I am surprised he said that). I go to my partner but he really doesn't have the angle either and he mirrors my call.

Is this just a situation that is a weakness of 2 man mechanics? I explained to the coach that I was in a no win situation. Did I actually see the tag? Not really. But I also didn't see her miss the tag either. I know you can't guess an out but can you guess a safe?

Is my positioning wrong here? Do I need to come into the diamond? If I do and the throw back to third I am in trouble.

Any suggestions?

Thanks

[oppool]

I know I have been there before so the only advise I can gave is if the runner veers to avoid the tag call the out. If coach questions use the 3' out of path rule will usally work out the possible miss tag argument. Coach may gave you one of those dirty looks thing BUT he probably was concentrating so hard on the tag that he wont remember if the base runner ran out of the 3' path


JMO

Don

[Steve M]

Ark,
Starting position is going to have me about 20 feet off of 2B towards 3B. With the ball hit to F4, I am going to be moving toward 2B to get an angle on the tag. I do not have to move much, just the appearance of my moving is going to convince a coach that I have gotten to the best position possible.

Don mentioned "out of the basepath". I've used that. The guideline that I use is that I allow the runner to veer or change direction with one stride. When a second stride is taken, that's too much and I've got an out.

As for the "can't guess an out but can you guess a safe" question. I got two choices, out or safe. If I can't call an out because I'm obviously guessing, that means I'm down to a single choice - safe.

A lot of times, good timing will take care of this play for you - the players will show you what the call should be with their body language. When they do that, make sure you listen.

Steve M

[CecilOne]

If F4 has the ball and is reaching toward the runner, then the ball is outside the basepath and the BU belongs inside. Even if not outside the line from 1st to 2nd, there is no longer a possibility of interfering with a batted ball, so we have to cover the play. Still, coming from C, that's a tough angle and the overriding principle is never guess an out. Yes, you can guess a safe, have to if you don't know and you are not guessing an out. Reaching out is a lot different than a solid tag, so if F4 then throws to 2nd, it indicates that she needed to for the out and probably missed the tag. If F4 throws to 1st, she probably thinks she made the tag, but you still can't guess she did. If BU was a little to the right of F6 (probably shifting left), then being inside and even moving toward the tag play still allows time to shift or duck if F4 decides to throw to 3rd. For that matter, further in, so you are not in the line from F4 to 3rd, probably gives a better angle on both the tag and the force at 2nd.

Personally, I think 20 feet is too close to 2nd and would make getting in the way more likely. If you are that close, then staying outside and sighting a line from behind 2nd toward 1st might work, then hustle like mad to get the play at 1st unless your partner is alert enough to call you off. I'm uncomfortable with the concepts of using the basepath rule as a crutch and moving to convince the coach, although I firmly believe that presence adds credibility. Runners are allowed to veer as long as their feet don't go 3 feet (not measured in strides) from their original base path.

Yes, good timing is important. If you don't rush the call, you will see the reactions, the body language, and not be as likely to be stuck with a guess.

[kellerumps]

First of all, you have to be moving in and over to get an angle on that play.....Remember, your partner should be coming up the line to cover any play at 3rd(Communicate).

Next slow down and read the entire play, did you see a change in direction of the fielders arm, did you hear anything, how did the runner react, how did the fielder react......Take it all in and then make a good strong decision.

In the 2-Man system, that is a very very tough call to make.

[DownTownTonyBrown]

You should be expecting the double play... therefore you should be moving towards 1st. F4 should be expected to either come up firing to 2nd or attempting a tag. When she attempted the tag and then turned to 2nd this says she missed the tag. No call is in order until the force out is made at 2nd.

Can you guess an out? No. Guess a safe. No. If you don't see the out then the runner is safe and this would not be considered a guess. If you missed seeing an out then you are out of position... this happens. Learn from it and get into proper position next time.

Because you are expecting the double play, you have got to give up 3rd base to the Plate umpire who should be moving up the 3rd baseline to either make the call at 3rd or to move back towards home as the player advances past 3rd.

I would have expected your position to come from behind F6 towards the pitcher's mound or slightly towards 2nd. F6 will be heading to 2nd and you should come into the diamond behind her. When you make the call at 2nd you should be nearly inside the diamond - close to the 2nd-3rd baseline. Progess towards 1st and make the call at 1st from near the pitcher's mound.

At least this is the way I would envision the play to unfold.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by CecilOne
If F4 has the ball and is reaching toward the runner, then the ball is outside the basepath and the BU belongs inside. Even if not outside the line from 1st to 2nd, there is no longer a possibility of interfering with a batted ball, so we have to cover the play.

Cannot argue with any of the posts here, but the statement above doesn't always ring true.

The I/O mechanic isn't solely based on avoiding interference with a batted ball and the baseline/basepath has no bearing on it's execuation.

The purpose is not only to avoid interference, but to avoid being clocked by a ball. It is based on the whereabouts of the ball as it relates to the fielder and possible play.

In this scenario, if the BU hustles inside to get an angle and F4 decides to throw to 3B, look out! Even if the BU only comes in a little, if F6 tries to throw behind the runner at 3B, the BU may still be in the way.

[CecilOne]

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA
The I/O mechanic isn't solely based on avoiding interference with a batted ball and the baseline/basepath has no bearing on it's execuation.

Right, I used the batted ball example because the question was about coming inside. OK, the baseline reference was inappropriate, trying to make the point that "not in the outfield" is less significant than being on the opposite side of the play from the ball. I know the I/O mechanic says dirt or grass, but this was my opinion and what I believe would have worked best for me and possibly for arkblue, on this play.

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA
The purpose is not only to avoid interference, but to avoid being clocked by a ball. It is based on the whereabouts of the ball as it relates to the fielder and possible play.

In this scenario, if the BU hustles inside to get an angle and F4 decides to throw to 3B, look out! Even if the BU only comes in a little, if F6 tries to throw behind the runner at 3B, the BU may still be in the way.

Right, that's why I said "further in, so you are not in the line from F4 to 3rd". The BU still would be 30 - 40 feet away from F4.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by CecilOne

Right, I used the batted ball example because the question was about coming inside. OK, the baseline reference was inappropriate, trying to make the point that "not in the outfield" is less significant than being on the opposite side of the play from the ball. I know the I/O mechanic says dirt or grass, but this was my opinion and what I believe would have worked best for me and possibly for arkblue, on this play.

Right, that's why I said "further in, so you are not in the line from F4 to 3rd". The BU still would be 30 - 40 feet away from F4.

Gotcha. The only problem with mechanics like this is that one cannot depend on the players reacting the same way to the same play. Level of ball and age group (not always the same thing) has a lot of bearing on where an umpire can get to on the field.

[CecilOne]

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA
... snip ... Level of ball and age group (not always the same thing) has a lot of bearing on where an umpire can get to on the field.

"Umpire" is mongolian for "run like deer"