How would you rule on this?

[Skahtboi]

NFHS

With R1 on second, B2 hits a fly ball that appears will fall in for a hit. However, F8 makes a spectacular catch. R1 is off with the hit, and is obstructed while attempting to advance to third. She then realizes that the catch is made and attempts to return to second base and is tagged out.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Skahtboi

NFHS

With R1 on second, B2 hits a fly ball that appears will fall in for a hit. However, F8 makes a spectacular catch. R1 is off with the hit, and is obstructed while attempting to advance to third. She then realizes that the catch is made and attempts to return to second base and is tagged out.

Dead ball! Obstruction! You - 2nd base.

Come on, give us a more difficult one!

[Az.Ump]

I believe this is one of the exceptions. Unless she is obstructed on the way back to 2B she is out on a successful appeal

Paul

[RKBUmp]

8-5-B-e. Leaving a base before a fly ball was first touched.

Effect, d-e. The obstructed runner is out if properly appealed.

[jchamp]

Originally Posted by Skahtboi

NFHS

With R1 on second, B2 hits a fly ball that appears will fall in for a hit. However, F8 makes a spectacular catch. R1 is off with the hit, and is obstructed while attempting to advance to third. She then realizes that the catch is made and attempts to return to second base and is tagged out.

Would the proper ruling depend on whether (a) the catch had been made yet when she was obstructed, and (b) if she was moving towards the next base or the previous base?

I thought that if she was moving back to the original base and is obstructed, she is entitled to the base she is attempting to run towards (even if a pick-off play is in progress) based on the doctrine that the defense should not be able to prevent a runner from returning to a base left too soon.
If the ball was still in flight, would that add that the ball be dead on the catch, and the runner returned at that time, based on which base she attempts to move to after the dead ball is called. That is, if she returns to second, then she's okay, but if she moves directly to third, an appeal can be made.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by RKBUmp

8-5-B-e. Leaving a base before a fly ball was first touched.

Effect, d-e. The obstructed runner is out if properly appealed.

This applies if the runner does not retouch when she goes to her awarded base (impossible in his scenario, as her award base IS the base she left early.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Az.Ump

I believe this is one of the exceptions. Unless she is obstructed on the way back to 2B she is out on a successful appeal

Paul

Not per the rulebook it's not.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by jchamp

Would the proper ruling depend on whether (a) the catch had been made yet when she was obstructed, and (b) if she was moving towards the next base or the previous base?

No, it wouldn't. Not sure why anyone might think that.

I thought that if she was moving back to the original base and is obstructed, she is entitled to the base she is attempting to run towards (even if a pick-off play is in progress) based on the doctrine that the defense should not be able to prevent a runner from returning to a base left too soon.

I'm not aware of any doctrines in the rulebook. Shall we instead base our rulings on what the rulebook actually says? When we (umpires) see obstruction, we are to determine what base she would have achieved absent the obstruction... she is protected A) to that base and B) between the bases where she was when obstructed. In this scenario, A is 2nd base and B is between 2nd and 3rd. 8-5-2 tells us that when a baserunner is put out between the bases where she's obstructed, it's a dead ball and we then announce the award.

If the ball was still in flight, would that add that the ball be dead on the catch,

Egads why? Obs is and always is a DELAYED dead ball, which may change in the future to a dead ball on certain conditions, none of which are present here.

and the runner returned at that time, based on which base she attempts to move to after the dead ball is called. That is, if she returns to second, then she's okay, but if she moves directly to third, an appeal can be made.

we would NEVER EVER base anything on what direction she happens to move when a dead ball is called (not that we call one here anyway). We announce the award. If she retouches in the process of accepting her awarded base, she's fine. If not, THEN she's subject to appeal.

Why are otherwise good umpires wanting to add bits to the rulebook here. Obstruction is EASY. Don't make it difficult. Don't try to determine what's fair, what someone's intent was, or other irrelevant information. If you feel this particular case is "unfair" to the defense, perhaps they shouldn't have obstructed in the first place!

[Tex]

Based on play described, I have an out. To be safe obstruction must occur after fly ball is first touched and while returning to 2nd base.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Tex

Based on play described, she is safe returning to 2nd base due to obstruction which occurred after first touched.

OP doesn't say the OBS is after first touched... I only mention because it actually doesn't matter and it's a little worrisome that you posted that tidbit as part of the reason you have her safe.

[HugoTafurst]

Originally Posted by Tex

Based on play described, I have an out. To be safe obstruction must occur after fly ball is first touched and while returning to 2nd base.

Please explain.
Why can't obstruction occur while the ball is in the air?

[RKBUmp]

Rule supplement 36, 5th paragraph.

"It should also be clear tha the statement "a runner cannot be called out between the two bases the runner was obstruced" does not apply when the runner committed another violation and that violation is being palyed upon. EXAMPLE: A runner leaving second base too soon on a fly ball is returning after the ball is caught and is obstructed between second base and third base. If the runner would not have made it back to second base prior to the throw arriving, the runner remains out."

[Az.Ump]

Read page 58 of your 2011 NFHS case book at 8.4.3 Situation H.

Paul

[hog]

NFHS Rule 8-4-3b, Exception 2 tells me that the runner is out on proper appeal, unless she was obstructed while returning to the bag.

My ruling is she's out.

[BretMan]

Hmmm...The original post is almost a verbatim dupilcate of the FED Case Play. That leads me to believe that Skahtboi is getting at something more than just what the correct ruling would be.

Maybe it's this...

Suppose the runner was heading toward third and got completely knocked down, wiped out and maybe even injured.

Couldn't you say that hampered her ability to get back to second even more so that some incidental bump as she happened to be heading the other drection?

Yes, I know that's not what the Case Play says...but it does seem kind of incongruous. She's out if she's headed one direction- even though at that point she still had the right to go back and tag up and the obstruction may have prevented it- but not out if she's headed the other way- even though she may have been out anyway.