8U rules conundrum

[MD Longhorn]

OK, this one has been posed to several of our most experienced umpires, and we're getting different answers from each... so for your opinions please:

8U ASA. The relevant rule for this area says, "Play stops when the pitcher obtains control of the ball within the circle and holds it up." The umpire is then to "direct runners forward if they are ahead of the halfway point, and send them back if they are not."

None out, R1 on third. VERY high pop up. R1 crosses the plate. F6 then catches the ball(!!!!!). F6 throws to pitcher, who misses the ball. F3 retrieves the ball and throws to F1, who catches the ball in the circle and holds it up. PU immediately calls time.

During this time, coaches are yelling for R1 to return, but she does not hear anyone until JUST a bit after PU calls time, at which she begins returning to third (skipping home, but that never comes up). Everyone's yelling at this point, PU holding his hands up, calling time progressively louder. Runner makes it back to third right as it dies down.

PU directs batter home, and she runs home (touching it again).

NO ONE appealed or even questioned what was happening, although there were a lot of confused faces. We won't go into the cluster that occurred 2 batters later when they got the 2nd out that everyone thought was the third out.

[CecilOne]

OK, the call is "PU directs batter home, and she runs home (touching it again)."
Presumably R1, not the batter.

The rule says "play stops" at the pitcher control demo point, at which time the Umpire artificially places the runner(s).
By that, R1 obviously past halfway when "play stops" and when time is called, looks like a correct call.

The conundrum is what "play stops" is intended to mean.

This paragraph is probably irrelevant to the call unless 3rd base dying down is needed.
"During this time, coaches are yelling for R1 to return, but she does not hear anyone until JUST a bit after PU calls time, at which she begins returning to third (skipping home, but that never comes up). Everyone's yelling at this point, PU holding his hands up, calling time progressively louder. Runner makes it back to third right as it dies down."


disclaimer: this is another local rule.

[MD Longhorn]

Yes, it is another local rule... but a very commonly used one (the "control in the circle" killing the action) in 8U.

The question is ... given this rule, did the PU do right by calling time at the instant the ball was controlled in the circle, and was the action of scoring the runner (yes, the runner) proper. (And would anyone have handled this differently?)

[okla21fan]

I would look at this conundrum this way. Much like a dead ball award or a 'home run', the baserunners are required to run the bases properly'. If not, the defense has the ability to make a proper dead ball appeal (of course, this would be very interesting to see pulled off in 8u )

I think the PU made his award (which was home) and was right for sticking to it. (what the runner (re touching home) did after calling time is not relevant as the ball is dead)

[BretMan]

Of course, there can't be any "right" answer here since this is a made up rule. It isn't going to conform with any standard rule or interpretation in the ASA rule book (unless this league has already anticipated such a play and written something to cover it, which I doubt).

I guess that I would:

- Call time once the pitcher had the ball (just because that's what their rule says you have to do).

- Ignore everything else that happened after that point...UNLESS it's an appeal for leaving early on the catch. Then I have an out.

If anybody complains, I'll invite them to file a protest with the league. Let them sort it out...and, hopefully, see the absurdity of their imaginary, made up rule.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by BretMan

Of course, there can't be any "right" answer here since this is a made up rule. It isn't going to conform with any standard rule or interpretation in the ASA rule book (unless this league has already anticipated such a play and written something to cover it, which I doubt).

I guess that I would:

- Call time once the pitcher had the ball (just because that's what their rule says you have to do).

- Ignore everything else that happened after that point...UNLESS it's an appeal for leaving early on the catch. Then I have an out.

If anybody complains, I'll invite them to file a protest with the league. Let them sort it out...and, hopefully, see the absurdity of their imaginary, made up rule.

Why ignore what happens while the ball is dead? The runner legally retouched after the ball became dead and then completed her baserunning assignment. If the defense wanted a timely appeal, they shouldn't have made the ball dead. (Then invite the people who complain to file a protest, hopefully, then they'll see the absurdity of their imaginary made up rule.

[DeputyUICHousto]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

PU immediately calls time.

Once the plate umpire calls time I would think play stops and there is no need for the runner to return to 3rd base.

[txtrooper]

Sounds like you did the right thing Mike. We always have umpires in our 6U and 8U divisions at my local association. I agree that it would serve the parents right to have them call these games and it would free up an umpire to work other games, although I believe it would be a nightmare for the league.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by txtrooper

Sounds like you did the right thing Mike. We always have umpires in our 6U and 8U divisions at my local association. I agree that it would serve the parents right to have them call these games and it would free up an umpire to work other games, although I believe it would be a nightmare for the league.

Which means they would be more appreciative of the umpires they do get.

[tcannizzo]

Back in 89-94 I was on the board of a local rec association.
Although it wasn't my idea, each year all of the coaches were required to attend a coaches meeting held by then-UIC for Metro Atlanta, Charlie Myers.

Charlie conducted an umpire clinic, and administered the current umpire test to all the coaches. At the end of the session, each coach received a green card.

Later, a particular basketball official offered a program called "PETS" Parents Educated in The Sport. A 90-minute clinic explaining rules and rulings with a "hand-book" as a takeaway.

Both of these were invaluable in providing parents, players and coaches with a much better understanding of what is going on during a game; end result much smoother for all involved including the officials.

I know many, including myself, who offer rules clinics for teams and leagues. Perhaps more resources like this should be made available through a commercial venture.

Of course, there is the flip side. A whole mob of people who can say "I used to umpire"

[Steve M]

Originally Posted by tcannizzo

Of course, there is the flip side. A whole mob of people who can say "I used to umpire"

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
I can think of a number of current uimpires who should be able to say this too.

[Skahtboi]

Originally Posted by Steve M

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
I can think of a number of current uimpires who should be able to say this too.

Are you sure they ever really did?