ASA 2003 umpire's exam, question 50

[Tap]

It appears that there are 2 correct answers, or least one correct answer and one that might be correct.

Q. With a double base in use and a play at 1B, the defensive player can:

a. Use the colored or white portion if the throw comes from foul territory.
b. Cannot use the white portion when carrying the ball from foul territory.
c. Cannot use the colored portion on a high throw from the short stop.
d. Restricted to the white portion on a throw from foul territory.

[typos/odd word structure in original]

I might be mis-reading or over-reading these, but here's what I think. Choices "b" and "d" are clearly wrong.

Choice "c" is a true statement, assuming that the "high throw" was caught and F-3 simply landed on the colored portion (it does not appear that we have an errant throw -- as ASA is defining that term -- or a play otherwise coming from foul ground).

But choice "a" also seems correct, assuming that the foul territory referenced is on the 1B side, not the 3B side (since no reference was made to the 3B side, my assumption is that it was on the 1B side).

Is it possible that both are correct? Any thoughts on this? Thanks.

[SamNVa]

My guess is that choice a is the correct answer. Since c only says a high throw, I dont tjink you can assume that it was an errant throw mwaning that F3 could not catch the ball, so I think this is "red herring". As you also stated, b and d are clearly false statements.

My 2 cents.
SamC

[Tap]

Sam,

I think we agree that we cannot assume an errant throw. I was assuming that it was NOT an errant throw, thus it's a true statement (fielder cannot use colored portion).

Maybe the word "cannot" in choice "c" should not be there and it should start out with "use....", which would make it an incorrect answer, thus "a" would be the only correct answer.

Steve

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by Tap
Sam,

I think we agree that we cannot assume an errant throw. I was assuming that it was NOT an errant throw, thus it's a true statement (fielder cannot use colored portion).

Maybe the word "cannot" in choice "c" should not be there and it should start out with "use....", which would make it an incorrect answer, thus "a" would be the only correct answer.

Steve

I was confused with this question also and I believe the can/cannot contradiction causes that problem.

My personal choice was A, but the rule book specifically state foul ground on the first base side, the question doesn't.

C would be my next option under the original wording of the rule, but does not supply enough information for us to determine if the throw meets the definition of "errant" as Henry Pollard explained to me. (Errant throw: A throw which the fielder cannot catch) Well, obviously, if the fielder came down on the orange section of the bag to put out the runner, they caught the ball.

I think this may be a question someone just didn't walk through and there is no doubt to it being poorly worded.

[greymule]

The question is so badly constructed that it should be thrown out. It is laughably bad. I notice that many of the umpires who frequent this site are teachers. Do the people who make up the ASA test know no one who could edit it for them?

When considering plays that come "from the foul side," I never once considered that F5 might well be on "the foul side" when making a throw from behind 3B. Obviously F3 cannot use the orange base on a throw from there. Just another example of how we cannot take the book literally.

[Dakota]

It looks to me like they were trying so hard to construct more than one answer that would "seem" correct to the less than careful reader, they were hoist on their own petard.

If you assume that all pertitent information needs to be present in the scenario / answers, then there is no correct answer.

a) is not correct, since foul territory includes from the 3B side.
b) is not correct, for obvious reasons.
c) is not correct, since the fielder may use the colored base if he misses the high throw
d) is not correct, for obvious reasons.

Are you sure there was not an e) none of the above?

PS: I also would guess they were looking for c) to be the correct answer, trying to emphasize that being "pulled" to the colored base is not an errant throw.

[Edited by Dakota on Mar 7th, 2003 at 12:37 PM]

[Del-Blue]

Tap,

The way I read it ,I will have to go along with your conclusion. In A you can use either base on a play from foul territory. There has never been any mention of the foul territory by third base, so I would guess it to be obvious no play can be made from there. I believe C is also correct, because it says high throw, not an errant throw.

Also my 2 cents

[Skahtboi]

Personally, I am going along with Dakota's choice of e) none of the above!

I won't take the test until next week. So guys, do me a favor and hammer out the definitive answer by then! Thanks.

Scott

[greymule]

The answer has to be c. ASA "clarified" the rule last year, and an ambiguity arose where 8-2-M-c said, "On . . . an errant throw pulling the defense into foul ground, the defense and the batter-runner can use either the white or the colored portion."

Many people thought that gave the fielder an extra-long base to use, so ASA had to issue a clarification. This question is undoubtedly included on the test to put that issue to rest.

A guy around here once beat a parking ticket because the judge agreed with him that "12 p.m." was ambiguous. The parking sign read, "No parking 8 a.m. to 12 p.m." and the township meant 8 a.m. to midnight. Though the sign was technically correct, the guy made a case for 12 p.m. being noon. (What do you think, Roger?) So I suspect somebody might beat a parking ticket on a legal ambiguity like the ASA test's "foul territory," too, but I doubt that ASA was digging after that technicality.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by Del-Blue
Tap,

The way I read it ,I will have to go along with your conclusion. In A you can use either base on a play from foul territory. There has never been any mention of the foul territory by third base, so I would guess it to be obvious no play can be made from there. I believe C is also correct, because it says high throw, not an errant throw.

Also my 2 cents

Okay, Bob, I'll give you this answer, and you can give it to everyone else in three weeks.

The answer to question 50 is A. Don't read too much into the questions. If it wasn't brought up (BTW, Grey, the book is correct, it states first base side), how many would have thought of it?

As I said, I believe the question was one word too long and the responses are poorly presented.

[greymule]

Yes, obviously a is correct. It's in black and white in the book. What kind of play do they think they're describing in c, though?

Remember that last year a question had two correct answers, even though it wasn't supposed to.

(And yes, the book does specify 1B side.)

[IRISHMAFIA]

Like I said, I think the can/cannot contradiction confused even the author. Prior to Henry defining "errant", I would think that C would be true. For that matter, maybe the author believed the same.

Maybe they meant F3 went after the high throw and came back from foul ground.

Who knows?

[ronald]

As I was reading through the threads and before I got to Mike's answer, I releazied that they wanted a) because of the throw from third base foul area=white bag and a throw from 1st base foul area=colored. I did not take high throw to mean errant.

I never realized there were so many differences between fed and Asa. what a headace to remember them!

[CecilOne]

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA
... snip ... Prior to Henry defining "errant", I would think that C would be true. For that matter, maybe the author believed the same....snip ...

That's the second reference to Henry Pollard's definition of errant that I've seen you make. What is it? Or where is it?

btw, I would have answered "C"

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by CecilOne

That's the second reference to Henry Pollard's definition of errant that I've seen you make. What is it? Or where is it?

btw, I would have answered "C"

Henry defined "errant" throw for me at a clinic last June in Plant City, FL.

According to Henry, an errant throw is one the fielder cannot reach. In other words, if the fielder catches it in flight, it wasn't errant.

As far as getting it in the book, I cannot find it.