Providing the impetus

[NCASAUmp]

Two years ago, ASA released a clarification that talked about a fielder kicking a batted ball into the dugout. The ruling they gave was that kicking the ball is essentially the same as throwing it, and the bases awarded would be governed by the positions of the runners at the time of the kick and not the time of the pitch.

The way it was explained (at least here) was that it was the fielder that provided the impetus for the ball exiting the field of play. I'm in full agreement with that.

A couple of years ago, ASA added the following rule:

ASA 8-5-I: When a fair batted ball:
Hits the fence and then deflects off of the defensive player and goes over the home run fence.
EFFECT: The ball is dead, and all runners are awarded two bases from the time of the pitch.

If the ball hits the fence and appears to come back into play and is subsequently deflected by the fielder, would that not be another case of the fielder "providing the impetus?"

What if the fielder was swinging his/her arm in an effort to retrieve the ball, and they accidentally knock it over the fence with their glove?

What if, for whatever reason, they do this intentionally?

Tossing this out there...

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

If the ball hits the fence and appears to come back into play and is subsequently deflected by the fielder, would that not be another case of the fielder "providing the impetus?"

...

If the ball hits the fence, isn't it still in play? How is this different than a ball hitting the ground?

Are you saying it should be 2 bases from time of deflection?
Are you also asking about 2 bases versus 4 bases?

[BretMan]

I would think that a batted ball that went all the way to the fence would have plenty enough momentum on it's own. So you would treat it as a "deflected ball", not one where the fielder added momentum to it. By the rule using the phrase "deflects off the defensive player" the assumption is that the ball did have sufficient momentum on it's own.

What if the fielder was swinging his arm....? Then we get to judge if the ball had sufficient momentum to go over on it's own, or if the fielder provided the momentum.

What if this was intentional? Then we high-five the fielder, because that would be a pretty neat trick!

If a fielder really could pull that off, and you really could judge it as intentional, then you could apply the rule for intentionally knocking the ball out of play. I think that rule would override 8-5-I.

[JefferMC]

I think y'all just gave me the impetus for a headache.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

If the ball hits the fence, isn't it still in play? How is this different than a ball hitting the ground?

Are you saying it should be 2 bases from time of deflection?
Are you also asking about 2 bases versus 4 bases?

I'm asking about 2 bases from time of pitch versus 2 bases from time of last contact.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

I'm asking about 2 bases from time of pitch versus 2 bases from time of last contact.

Well, by rule they are separating these two events. I see your point of similarity - but they are telling us to rule on this particular one differently. I think generally it's a matter of degree... kicking being more than a "deflection".

[DaveASA/FED]

I think it's a difference between a batted ball and a thrown ball. I know the rules don't support what I am thinking but I think the reasoning is this. In your case, the ball is a batted ball that is deflected over the fence, same as bouncing over the fence, it's ruled a 2 base award (2 bases from the time of the pitch). In the ruling that ASA gave a few years ago I think they were talking about a player kicking a thrown ball (or at least not a batted ball) into dead ball territory which would be awarded 2 bases from the time of the throw (or kick). There is also the difference that in your OP the deflection was over the home run fence. In that case you only really have two choices, a home run (4 base award) or a 2 base award. I think this is clarifying that this situation would be a two base award just as if it hit the ground and bounced over the fence.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by DaveASA/FED

There is also the difference that in your OP the deflection was over the home run fence. In that case you only really have two choices, a home run (4 base award) or a 2 base award. I think this is clarifying that this situation would be a two base award just as if it hit the ground and bounced over the fence.

Not really. A thrown ball that for whatever reason goes over the fence (assuming no intent by the fielder) is 2 bases TOT. Just like a ball going over the other fences or into a dugout.

[DaveASA/FED]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Not really. A thrown ball that for whatever reason goes over the fence (assuming no intent by the fielder) is 2 bases TOT. Just like a ball going over the other fences or into a dugout.

Ok so I will stay with my first responce a thrown ball is from TOT, a hit ball is from TOP. But that would be an AWFUL throw that goes over the home run fence!!!

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

If the ball hits the fence, isn't it still in play? How is this different than a ball hitting the ground?

It isn't, which is why, IMO, the rule change was for the inept and completely unnecessary.