Dead Ball Craziness

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by Dakota

"Next?"

"reaches the first base of the award?"

I don't mean to sound like a rookie, but I'm pretty much ASA only, so I don't know the FED rules very well to compare.

The ASA rule change seems to be implying some kind of positive action by the runner to proceed to an awarded base after the award is announced by using the word "next", but then talks further about reaching the "first" awarded base.

Situation: she missed 2nd, throw made while she is between 2nd and 3rd & ball is thrown out of play. Runner comes to a stop on 3rd; umpire calls "dead ball."

Now, is this runner not allowed to return to touch 2nd once I announce the award, since 3rd is the "first" awarded base? Or, since the "next" base in the award would be home, is she allowed to return even after I announce, so long as that is her first move - back toward 2nd?

Am I parsing this too close?

I think I know the intent of the rule, but it sounds like I can strand a runner by announcing the award too soon. Or, maybe not...

If this is the existing FED rule, how long do you guys wait after the dead ball call to see if the runner has any intention of trying to return? Does it matter if a coach is yelling at her to return but she's not reacting yet?

Tom,

I think ChampaignBlue was referring to the ASA which allows the return during a dead ball period and the rule change which prohibits such a return once the runner advances to or passes an awarded base.

[ChampaignBlue]

Under ASA, until bases are awarded, runners may return to retouch any base. Once the bases are awarded the only base that can be retouched is the one just passed provided you have not touched the next one.

Let's say we're awarding 2nd and 3rd on a play.

1st case: runner misses 1st and has rounded 2nd when ball goes OOP. Under ASA rule Ump calls dead ball, runner stops and (A)-turns around and retags 1st ump then awards 3rd or (B)-starts for 3rd and ump awards 3rd runner changes mind and retags 1st, runner is subject to appeal because she had already passed the first awarded base (2nd) after the award was made.

2nd case:runner misses 2nd when ball goes OOP. Ump calls dead ball and runner continues on to 3rd while ump awards 3rd.(A) After reaching 3rd coach tells runner to go back and retouch 2nd which runner does. Runner is subject to appeal because 3rd (the next awarded base) had been touched.
or (B) Before reaching 3rd coach tells runner to go back and touch 2nd. Runner is not subject to appeal because the next awarded base had not yet been touched. Jim

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by ChampaignBlue
Under ASA, until bases are awarded, runners may return to retouch any base. Once the bases are awarded the only base that can be retouched is the one just passed provided you have not touched the next one.

Let's say we're awarding 2nd and 3rd on a play.

1st case: runner misses 1st and has rounded 2nd when ball goes OOP. Under ASA rule Ump calls dead ball, runner stops and (A)-turns around and retags 1st ump then awards 3rd or (B)-starts for 3rd and ump awards 3rd runner changes mind and retags 1st, runner is subject to appeal because she had already passed the first awarded base (2nd) after the award was made.

2nd case:runner misses 2nd when ball goes OOP. Ump calls dead ball and runner continues on to 3rd while ump awards 3rd.(A) After reaching 3rd coach tells runner to go back and retouch 2nd which runner does. Runner is subject to appeal because 3rd (the next awarded base) had been touched.
or (B) Before reaching 3rd coach tells runner to go back and touch 2nd. Runner is not subject to appeal because the next awarded base had not yet been touched. Jim

Since you are only awarding 3B, I'll assume the runner had not yet reached 2B at the time of the throw.

1A. No problem
1B,2A & 2B: Problem. I think the key here is for the umpire to not immediately award bases until it is obvious that the runner is satisfied where they are standing. Once it is obvious the runner is done and standing on a base, announce the award. At this point, the runner may not return. If the runner is between bases and demands to know the award, I would consider him/her committed and announce the award. In both cases, if the award is announced, the the runner may not return to touch a missed base or base left too soon.

With the new condition added about returning after proceeding to or passed an awarded base, the mechanic offered above is pure supposition.

[Andy]

OK, I have learned something from this thread! I need to make sure I got this, though. Here is a question.

On the original play presented, suppose the runner has missed second and is going into third at full speed. She is close enough to third when the ball goes out of play and "Dead ball" is declared that she cannot stop before she reaches and rounds third. The award of home is determined by the fact that she was between second and third at the time of the throw. Since her momentum has carried her past third (which will be the "first awarded base), is she allowed to return to touch second? Is the timing of when she can or cannot return governed by when the umpire makes the award? Is it governed by where she was when the dead ball was declared? I need interps for both FED and ASA, please. Perhaps the most important question: How should I, as an umpire, handle this situation if it were to occur in a game?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Speaking ASA

I think the key here is for the umpire to not immediately award bases until it is obvious that the runner is satisfied where they are standing. Once it is obvious the runner is done and standing on a base, announce the award. At this point, the runner may not return. If the runner is between bases and demands to know the award, I would consider him/her committed and announce the award.

This is the way I would handle it, at least for now.

[Dakota]

JMO, of course, but...

I assume this change was an attempt to level the situation up between offense and defense on such plays.

I can see how the previous rule (ASA) allowing the runner to return from nearly where-ever (not the dugout, but just about anywhere else) to touch a missed base before the dead ball appeal would be honored was too favorable to the offense.

However, this "nail 'em to the bag once the award is announced" approach is a significant tilt back in the other direction, and at least until the offense gets used to it, will strand runners who had been used to going back to touch missed bases AFTER the award was announced.

Once everyone settles in, it is probably a fair balance, though.

[Roger Greene]

If this was a Fed sitch:
If the runner's momentum caused her to go into third as the ball went dead, then she is just out of luck. She may not return to second if she is on or beyond the suceeding base when the ball becomes dead. (Remember, the rules arn't always fair. They are to preserve the balance between offense and defense.)

The only way to save the runner would be to judge that the defense intentionally threw the ball into DBT to strand the runner. That would not be the usual case.

The moral of the tale: Touch the bases in order the first time by.

Roger Greene

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by Dakota
JMO, of course, but...

I assume this change was an attempt to level the situation up between offense and defense on such plays.

I can see how the previous rule (ASA) allowing the runner to return from nearly where-ever (not the dugout, but just about anywhere else) to touch a missed base before the dead ball appeal would be honored was too favorable to the offense.

However, this "nail 'em to the bag once the award is announced" approach is a significant tilt back in the other direction, and at least until the offense gets used to it, will strand runners who had been used to going back to touch missed bases AFTER the award was announced.

Once everyone settles in, it is probably a fair balance, though.

I believe the purpose of this was to give the umpire a defining moment as to when a player cannot return. With the previous rule, under a dead ball, nothing could be applied until all running assignments were complete. Since there was nothing in the book to stop them, it was virtually possible to return and touch bags even after the award because of the stipulation of always allowing the runner to return during a dead ball period unless they entered DBT or a following runner scored.

[Del-Blue]

Mike,

I think the definition of reached the next base would be the base beyond the one he/she is standing on. Lets say the runner was heading to third, ball goes out of play, umpire calls dead ball. Now the runer is on third. the award would be home. as long as he/she doesn't touch home first, he/she may return to touch the bases missed. If he/she has touched home and then someone tells him/her they missed second, too bad they can't return.
Same as if the batter hit one to the gap, misses first, heads to second, ball comes in, passes second, and heads to third. No one can stop it and it goes into the dougout. The award would be third, but since the runner already passed second, they can not return to touch first. Remember the award is from the time of the throw, not when it goes out of play. In the second senerio, the throw was made as the runner was between first and second, so the award would be second and third, and since the runner is past the first base of the award,(second) they cannot return to touch first.

I think I have confussed myself.

Bob

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by Del-Blue
Mike,

I think the definition of reached the next base would be the base beyond the one he/she is standing on. Lets say the runner was heading to third, ball goes out of play, umpire calls dead ball. Now the runer is on third. the award would be home. as long as he/she doesn't touch home first, he/she may return to touch the bases missed. If he/she has touched home and then someone tells him/her they missed second, too bad they can't return.
Same as if the batter hit one to the gap, misses first, heads to second, ball comes in, passes second, and heads to third. No one can stop it and it goes into the dougout. The award would be third, but since the runner already passed second, they can not return to touch first. Remember the award is from the time of the throw, not when it goes out of play. In the second senerio, the throw was made as the runner was between first and second, so the award would be second and third, and since the runner is past the first base of the award,(second) they cannot return to touch first.

I think I have confussed myself.

Bob

Bob,

I'm glad to see you are still alive. I won't be at the meeting Monday, but I'm going to take the ride to Smyrna on the 3rd.

Remember, I qualify my answers as ASA. The only time a runner cannot return to touch a base missed or one left too soon on a caught fly ball is when that runner has entered DBT or a following runner has scored.

For example, a runner may score from 2B on a single by the batter, but missed 3B. Theoretically, this runner could be one step from entering DBT and realize what they did and return, retouch home, retouch 3B and home again. And this is all legal. Now, if this had happened on a HR where touching the bases are required, the moment the batter scores, the preceding runner is done and can no longer return.

Also, awarded bases and appeals are not to be applied during a dead ball period until all runners have been given the opportunity to complete their running assignments.

Pending additional info given in OKC, I would suspect umpires will be instructed to not announce awards until they believe the runner has completed their running assignment. However, once the umpire announces the award, or it is obvious the runner knows the award and advances on their own, now they may not return once the pass any of the awarded bases.

Instances where I would accept an indicator that a runner is accepting awarded bases and has completed the initial running assignments would be a runner being instructed to advance two bases on a dead ball, or a runner seeing the play and advancing when it is obvious they are doing so on a presumed award (i.e. BR advancing to 1B sees the ball go over F3 and into DBT and leisurely advances to 2B. Remember, in this case, 1B would be the first base of the award and the moment that runner commits to 2B, they have passed the "next awarded base" and cannot return to retouch 1B if they missed it the first time by.

Here is where the kicker is in all of this. As the "neutral" official, it really isn't up to us to stop the runner from returning whether permitted or not (unless they actually ask if they can return before doing so). It will still be up to the defense to make a proper appeal.

All of this is presumption based on the additional wording to the EFFECT of rule 8.5.G. I will be more than happy to report on anything I learn at the UIC clinic next month.

[Buck912]

Bob, I have to disagree with your interpretation. I'm speaking strictly Fed rules. The rule is saying that if the runner advances, touches, or is on the base beyond the missed base and the ball becomes dead, they cannot return to the missed base. I think it's clear that the language means beyond the missed base, and not beyond the base being occupied at the time the ball becomes dead. Now, so I don't confuse you or myself, I'm simply saying if a runner misses a base (in this example, 2nd base) and they advance to the next base, and the ball becomes dead.....they cannot return to touch that missed base. The same thing would apply to returning to tag up after a caught fly ball. Once the ball is dead, they are dead! so to speak!!!!

[Dakota]

AAAARRRRGGGG.

Sorry. I feel better now.

This post is getting confusing since it is mixing NFHS and ASA rules into the discussion, when these books have fundamental differences on when a runner may return to retouch a base.

In other words, even without the dead ball entering the picture, ASA and NFHS do not agree.

Now, in 2003, ASA changed the rule on when a runner may return, but only (so far as I know, only) when awarded bases are announced after a ball goes out of play. ASA's rule stayed the same in other situations. And, it stayed different from NFHS.

Mike, I would very much appreciate a report back on the ASA rule change and how umpires are being asked to apply it. Thanks.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by Dakota


Now, in 2003, ASA changed the rule on when a runner may return, but only (so far as I know, only) when awarded bases are announced after a ball goes out of play. ASA's rule stayed the same in other situations. And, it stayed different from NFHS.

Mike, I would very much appreciate a report back on the ASA rule change and how umpires are being asked to apply it. Thanks.

I received an e-mail from an attendee at a clinic who talked and received the following interpretation from Bernie Profato.

A runner may not return to retouch a missed base or a base left too soon once that runner has advanced to and passed the next awarded base. The confusion is the timing of the award and the definition of the next awarded base. The "next awarded base" is that which would be the first to which the runner in question is advancing after the umpire announces the award.

For example: BR hits a ball which bounds to the outfield fence. While proceeding, 1B is missed by the BR. As the runner rounds 2B, F8 throws the ball over the infield and into DBT. The runner pulls up to 3B when the umpire announces the award which would be home. This announcement defines "home" as the next awarded base and until the moment comes when the runner touches home, s/he may return and retouch each base (in order, both directions) and still be within the confines of the rule.

Same scenario, this time the runner has stops and returns to 2B. Umpire announces the award (still home). Since the runner is on 2B, the announcement now defines 3B as the "next awarded base".

Hopefully, I will get something a bit more detailed in OKC.

[Dakota]

Thanks, Mike. That explanation makes sense.

[greymule]

Yes, thanks, Mike. Now we know which "first" "next" base they're talking about.

However, note that in this area ASA is still very different from Fed and not quite the same as OBR, which uses the moment the ball went out of play, not the time of the award, to determine runners' obligations.

It also gives us umps a little advantage in that we can see what's going on and know where everybody is when we make the award. In OBR, it's not always easy to gauge where everybody was at the moment the ball became dead.

This explanation still doesn't explain the case book play that says a BR who hits a ball over the fence (ball dead, award made), misses 1B, and then rounds 2B can legally return to touch 1B.