Complaining about SP

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by ronald
Elaine,

You have hit it on the head with slow pitch batters. Do they ever wait for the perfect pitch. I did some games in Texas and could not believe how many players walked or had 3-2 counts. when I played and when I get a chance to play, I generally swing at the first strike. god help the pitcher who throws me anything hitable inside: I'm swinging and it does not matter if it is a strike. I'm gonna crush that ball. I've seen the big boys play and they do the same thing. If it is not on the table, they do not swing. It's pathetic.

Then call more strikes. Forget what the players want for a strike zone, call it by the book. Bend your knees and get down to the set position and look up through the strike zone. I guarantee you will see more strikes than standing erect behind the catcher and looking at the ground or guessing. The strike zone isn't as small as many umpires call.

One of my favorite exchanges:

Batter (standing adjacent to the plate): Damn blue, how is that a strike?
Me: It was in the strike zone.
Batter: It was deep!
Me: Did you have to look down to watch the ball pass the plate?
Batter: Well, yeah. So what?
Me: If you had to look down to watch the ball as it passed, it must have been below your back shoulder.
Batter: What does that have to do with anything?
Me: The back shoulder defines height of the strike zone which makes that pitch a strike.
Batter: How and the hell am I supposed to hit a pitch up there?
Me: The box is seven feet long, I suggest you use it.

This batter was totally confused by the time we finished our conversation, but I've never heard another word from him.

Another favorite:

Batter: Damn that was a good pitch.
Me: Then why didn't you swing at it?
Batter: Can't swing until I get a strike called.
Me: No problem, here it comes.
Batter: That's no strike.
Me: Sure it was. Not as pretty as the first one, but they don't have to be pretty, just in the strike zone.
Batter: You're taking the bat out of my hands.
Me: Nope, because if I had the bat, I would have hit the first one and been on second by now.

Don't get me wrong, I don't make up strikes, but I do use every quarter-inch of the strike zone. If a team gets a couple of walks in a game I'm working, the pitcher really sucks.

[gsf23]

I agree with you Mike. When I did slowpitch, we had the 1 hour 15 minute rule. I've never had to call a game for time. Players know that I'm not going to sit there and let them take pitches all day.

Remember the plate is a foot wide, about an inch of black on each side, and the ball is about 4 inches wide, that gives you almost 18" of plate to work with, and I usually give a little more.

I once booted a guy in class "A" ball for arguing balls and strikes, he told me that there was a drop zone behind home plate that the ball had to hit to be a strike. I tossed him, gave him a rule book and told him he could come back in if he showed me anywhere in the book that said the ball had to land in a certain area to be a strike. He sat the whole game.

If guys want to walk, tell 'em to play fast-pitch. Slow-pitch is a hitters game, swing the damn bat.

[greymule]

True. If you bend with every pitch, a lot more look like strikes. Around here, New Jersey umps stay straight up and see more pitches as missing the back shoulder. Pennsylvania umps bend with the pitch and definitely call more "deep" strikes. I believe that if some big-time SP tournament somehow installed a perfect electronic strike zone that called the pitches exactly by the book, the batters would be in for a big surprise (and so would the pitchers).

But it's all what you're used to. Put me in a PA game, and the pitchers would be unhappy. Bring a PA ump to NJ, and the batters would be unhappy.

In tournaments, I've heard players joking about a "Delaware strike," but I don't know just what that is.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by greymule
True. If you bend with every pitch, a lot more look like strikes. Around here, New Jersey umps stay straight up and see more pitches as missing the back shoulder. Pennsylvania umps bend with the pitch and definitely call more "deep" strikes. I believe that if some big-time SP tournament somehow installed a perfect electronic strike zone that called the pitches exactly by the book, the batters would be in for a big surprise (and so would the pitchers).

But it's all what you're used to. Put me in a PA game, and the pitchers would be unhappy. Bring a PA ump to NJ, and the batters would be unhappy.

In tournaments, I've heard players joking about a "Delaware strike," but I don't know just what that is.

At the National School in Chester, PA two years ago, a PA player/umpire complained that when his team played in Delaware, they called every bit of the strike zone. All the Delaware umpires just turned to each other and smiled.

I don't know if Steve remembers that, but he was there. Of course, I heard about an umpire falling asleep while Bernie was speaking, but I don't think it was him

[oppool]

Are two different beast in a lot of ways and I do enjoy calling both and both do have there +'s and -'s. In SP it is not uncommon in the better leagues to finish 7 inning with time left over in 60min games. You better be swinging because if it is close I am going to ring it, more likely to catch slack from a pitcher that wants anything in the neighborhood espically those 12' arcs that land behind the plate but was clearly over the batter's head when it came across the plate than any arguments from the batter. FP usally slow moving games lucky to get 4 inning in within one hour BUT diffently keep you more in the game as an umpire

JMO

Don

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by oppool
Are two different beast in a lot of ways and I do enjoy calling both and both do have there +'s and -'s. In SP it is not uncommon in the better leagues to finish 7 inning with time left over in 60min games. You better be swinging because if it is close I am going to ring it, more likely to catch slack from a pitcher that wants anything in the neighborhood espically those 12' arcs that land behind the plate but was clearly over the batter's head when it came across the plate than any arguments from the batter. FP usally slow moving games lucky to get 4 inning in within one hour BUT diffently keep you more in the game as an umpire

JMO

Don

I'm just the opposite. FP bores the tears out of me. In SP, I make them hit the ball, so there is a lot more action.

[ronald]

If the black is showing then you can get away with calling it because most people and some umps think it is part of the plate but it is not. Take the ruler out and measure the white part across and you will find it is 17 inches just like the rule book says.

You wanna call the back shoulder, then make sure you call 12 feet and not thirteen and 14 and fifteen feet as legal. Otherwise you take the bat out of the players and give an advantage to the defensive team.

There was mention of this in referee magazine by Mr. Butler on this aspect: he was instructing the umpires to call it at 12 feet and that was not being called correctly by the umps. (he here was not talking about your ordinary ump but the guys who got the big games).

If you want to know how accurate your 12 feet is, have someone go behind the fences behind home plate. Most have horizontal bars across at 6 feet and 12 feet. Have that person count the number of times the ball goes above it and then compare it to the number of times you called it. You'll be surprised how many you missed unless you call twelve feet.

If the pitch does not cross the strike zone, I generally did not call it a strike unless I had a blowout.

ASA's strike zone might have something to do with why they have lost a lot of leagues and tournaments in Houston Area. Most are USSSA and NSA.

[bluezebra]

"Remember the plate is a foot wide, about an inch of black on each side, and the ball is about 4 inches wide, that gives you almost 18" of plate to work with, and I usually give a little more."

The last time I looked, the plate was SEVENTEEN (17") inches wide, not counting the black.

Bob

[greymule]

Ronald is dead on about enforcing the height of the pitch. Keep the arc down, don't let them get away with anything high, and err on the side of caution. If you have to call three in a row, then do so and let the pitcher whine. The alternative is chaos. Enforce the arc from the beginning and you won't have to deal with pitches that fall eight inches behind the plate and are still over the back shoulder.

The pitchers may not like you, but the hitters will, and there are a lot more of the latter. Last year, in a high-level tournament, we must have called 60 high pitches on one pitcher who simply would not adjust to what every other pitcher was doing. Of course, he acted as if we were robbing him, but there's no alternative. Before the championship game, I told both managers, "Anything up there is going to be illegal." Both guys immediately said, "No problem," and indeed we had no problem.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by ronald
If the black is showing then you can get away with calling it because most people and some umps think it is part of the plate but it is not. Take the ruler out and measure the white part across and you will find it is 17 inches just like the rule book says.

Speaking ASA, you would be wrong. For the purpose of all ASA rules, the black is to be considered part of the plate. If your clinicians are not teaching that, they are not using ASA's Clinic Guide or attending the right clinics.

From the 2002 guide:

Discuss the black safety rim (Emphasize that it is not part of the 17-inch width of the plate.)
1. If a pitch crosses over the black part, it is assumed the pitch also crossed over the white part.
2. If the catcher is touching the black part of the plate on a force out, it is considered to be also touching the white part.
3. If a runner touches the black part, it is considered they also touched the white part.
4. (Slow Pitch) If the ball touches the black part, it is considered that some part has also touched the white part.

Can't get any more specific than that.

You wanna call the back shoulder, then make sure you call 12 feet and not thirteen and 14 and fifteen feet as legal. Otherwise you take the bat out of the players and give an advantage to the defensive team.

Of course, you should be calling anything over 12 illegal.

There was mention of this in referee magazine by Mr. Butler on this aspect: he was instructing the umpires to call it at 12 feet and that was not being called correctly by the umps. (he here was not talking about your ordinary ump but the guys who got the big games).

Actually at the upper levels, the high pitch is always called on the rare occasion you see it and the umpires are instructed that 7 to 11 is more appropriate so if one gets by, it's probably still within the legal range.

If the pitch does not cross the strike zone, I generally did not call it a strike unless I had a blowout.

No one has suggested umpires make up their own strike zone, just use the one available, even in a blowout.

ASA's strike zone might have something to do with why they have lost a lot of leagues and tournaments in Houston Area. Most are USSSA and NSA.

I doubt that's the reason.

[ronald]

Mike,

I'm confused. You say Asa clinicians say it is part of the plate but the rule book says it is 17" and with black it is more than that. In addition, then you cite the clinicians guide and it says in parenthesis to empasize that black is not part of the plate but then it goes on to instruct umps to assume if it passed the black part that it passed the white part. Why assume that? It is possible that it didn't.

I will not call the black and will cover it up if possible when I do a game.

I am glad when I go onto a field and the black is not showing. If during a game some of it becomes exposed. I brush dirt over it when I clean the plate so it is not.

The black rim should be buried or ASA should rewrite its rule so it takes that extra measurement into account. There's no point to say the plate is 17" and then say oh well lets add the black to it which then makes the specification obsolete. What happens to a manager who protests an ump. What is the ump going to base his decision on? How can you interpret 17 inches to mean 17 3/4 or whatever it is?

I understand that not all grounds crews maintain fields as well as others and so you might have to be flexible in how you call it but I will go to my grave saying black is not part of 17". That is one I can read and it does not seem to be one that allows for middling on its interpretation. It's either 17 inches or not.

[ronald]

Mike,

Thanks for the info from the guide. That aspect has never been covered in the clinics I attended.

The black part generally does not come into play on well maintained fields.

[ronald]

Opppol

SP vs. FP

What level and gender of FP are you doing? When I was in Houston, they rarely played 7 innings of a slow pitch game in 1 hour and never in girls fast pitch.

After doing men's fast pitch, it is a bore to do girls most of the time. It takes longer between each pitch, between innings. It is slow. The men's I did could almost play 7 innings in 75 minutes. The game was fast and interesting. I was lucky since I was doing 40 and over and some open ball.

[whiskers_ump]

Originally posted by ronald
Opppol

SP vs. FP

What level and gender of FP are you doing? When I was in Houston, they rarely played 7 innings of a slow pitch game in 1 hour and never in girls fast pitch.

After doing men's fast pitch, it is a bore to do girls most of the time. It takes longer between each pitch, between innings. It is slow. The men's I did could almost play 7 innings in 75 minutes. The game was fast and interesting. I was lucky since I was doing 40 and over and some open ball.

ronald,
If they are taking too much time between innings and pitches,
then that is the umpires fault. Use the 20 secs. on pitcher,
and the one minute from the last out. Really speeds the game up.
I did a 4A playoff game from first pitch to last pitch, full 7
innings in 56 mins. Have had several in just a couple of minutes
over 1HR.


glen

[Elaine "Lady Blue"]

In reference to Mike, I did call a lot of strikes in SP, especially Men's, and I did remain upright until the pitch reached the top of the arc, went to my plate set position, made the verbal call, and came upright. I still say that Men's SP has a bunch of guys that 'wait on THEIR pitch' and continue to have 3-2 counts and then walk! The only time that this doesn't happen is in the upper levels of Men's SP. It ALWAYS happens in league, church, etc.

Elaine