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Old Sun Apr 10, 2011, 03:48am
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What is an outfielder/infielder?

Our ASA youth league requires 10U teams have four outfielders. One team in the division positions a player directly behind second base on the grass. This player takes all throws from the catcher -- second and short never move. Is this player a 7th infield defending the area around second, or are they an outfielder.

I'm interested in hearing your learned opinions.
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Old Sun Apr 10, 2011, 04:37am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saharvey2 View Post
Our ASA youth league requires 10U teams have four outfielders. One team in the division positions a player directly behind second base on the grass. This player takes all throws from the catcher -- second and short never move. Is this player a 7th infield defending the area around second, or are they an outfielder.

I'm interested in hearing your learned opinions.
So what your saying is that you have 6 infielders and 4 outfielders? That makes 10 players, ain't that 1 to many? However ISF is clear in this: All positions have a number and the top 3 numbers F7, F8 and F9 are the outfielders. They can however been placed in the infield.
I guess that's similar to ASA.

Then, to define whether that 10th player is an outfielder positioned in the infield or that the outfielder is playing in the outfield, depends on your (ASA) definition of infield and outfield. See also the IFF-rule, a pop-up easily to be caught by an infielder results in the IFF. I've seen in a men-league how that stretches up the infield on to the grass...

Third, knowing our softball-world, your problem is going to be solved in the next rule-change...

Finally, can you show me a rule that states that F8 can't take (all the) throws on 2nd base, where normally that will be F4 or F6? So, is there a problem?
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Old Sun Apr 10, 2011, 06:39am
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Your youth league needs to add their own definition to their rules.
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Old Sun Apr 10, 2011, 08:30am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saharvey2 View Post
Our ASA youth league requires 10U teams have four outfielders. One team in the division positions a player directly behind second base on the grass. This player takes all throws from the catcher -- second and short never move. Is this player a 7th infield defending the area around second, or are they an outfielder.

I'm interested in hearing your learned opinions.
To start, there are only four "position" players in the infield. However, for the purpose of any rules, the highlighted portion of your post is the answer to your question. If the player defends an area in the infield, that player is an infielder.
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Old Sun Apr 10, 2011, 08:35am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tcannizzo View Post
Your youth league needs to add their own definition to their rules.
Actually, ASA has already done that for them:

Quote:
INFIELDER: A fielder who defends the area of the field around first, second, third or shortstop areas.

OUTFIELDER: A fielder who defends the area of the field that the left, left-center, right-center, and right fielders normally play.
As Irish mentioned earlier, if, in the judgment of the umpire, that fielder is defending the area around 2nd base, then they are an infielder.
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I haven't decided if I should call it from the dugout or the outfield. Apparently, both have really great views!

Screw green, it ain't easy being blue!

I won't be coming here that much anymore. I might check in now and again.
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Old Sun Apr 10, 2011, 10:07am
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Here's one of our rec league's bylaws, which is for ages 12-14:

Infield positions shall consist of a maximum four players plus the pitcher and catcher. Outfield positions will start each play "on the grass".

At this level, a sharply hit ball might have a chance to reach the outfield grass. Depending on the cut of the infield, the distance could vary from field to field. Very few balls are hit to "the outfield" and coaches tend to bring outfielders in as far as they can until a batter burns them.
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Old Sun Apr 10, 2011, 11:06am
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It's 10U, guys. Even with 9 on defense, it is not unusual for F8 to take throws at 2B. 10U outfielders play very shallow many times. So, in that light, and barring any clarification from the league on what they meant, "..the area of the field that the left, left-center, right-center, and right fielders normally play" might very well be "directly behind second base on the grass".
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Old Sun Apr 10, 2011, 11:09am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dakota View Post
It's 10U, guys. Even with 9 on defense, it is not unusual for F8 to take throws at 2B. 10U outfielders play very shallow many times. So, in that light, and barring any clarification from the league on what they meant, "..the area of the field that the left, left-center, right-center, and right fielders normally play" might very well be "directly behind second base on the grass".
Which would still be within the definition.
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Dave

I haven't decided if I should call it from the dugout or the outfield. Apparently, both have really great views!

Screw green, it ain't easy being blue!

I won't be coming here that much anymore. I might check in now and again.
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Old Sun Apr 10, 2011, 09:29pm
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Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu View Post
Outfield positions will start each play "on the grass".
Regardless of level, comments of ignorance like this is what perpetuates myths.

I understand what they are attempting to do, but they need to realize that something as simple as this not worded in the proper manner will get a daddy-ball coach ejected somewhere down the road at a higher level and will never understand why.
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Old Sun Apr 10, 2011, 11:16pm
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Thank you for the prompt input.

It seems to me that this is a gray area that would require the league add a definition to the league rules supplement. Supplementing the official rules with league rules is a poor choice in my mind.

Stuart Harvey
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Old Mon Apr 11, 2011, 07:44am
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Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA View Post
Regardless of level, comments of ignorance like this is what perpetuates myths.

I understand what they are attempting to do, but they need to realize that something as simple as this not worded in the proper manner will get a daddy-ball coach ejected somewhere down the road at a higher level and will never understand why.
What could you offer in the way of "proper wording"?

I didn't write this league's bylaw, but I'd hardly refer to it as "ignorant". Yes, they're attempting to instruct the players in positional play. I've seen youth soccer and the term "herd ball" is an appropriate description of how the really young kids play. So many times in softball games at this level I see a popup fall among 3 players because no one took charge. It's all part of learning how to play the game.

We know that short fielders can play anywhere [in fair territory]. The SS can play on the RF side of 2B, or the second baseman can play a "shift" into short RF. Except for the battery, you could play all remaining players on either side of 2B.
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Old Mon Apr 11, 2011, 08:27am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu View Post
What could you offer in the way of "proper wording"?
How about no wording? If they cover the outfield, they are outfielders; infield, infielders.

Quote:
I didn't write this league's bylaw, but I'd hardly refer to it as "ignorant".
Do you understand the word? It is a lack of knowledge or awareness. I would prefer that this be the case instead of someone intentionally providing something that contradicts the rules.

Quote:
Yes, they're attempting to instruct the players in positional play. I've seen youth soccer and the term "herd ball" is an appropriate description of how the really young kids play. So many times in softball games at this level I see a popup fall among 3 players because no one took charge. It's all part of learning how to play the game.

We know that short fielders can play anywhere [in fair territory]. The SS can play on the RF side of 2B, or the second baseman can play a "shift" into short RF. Except for the battery, you could play all remaining players on either side of 2B.
Teaching players the game and providing bad references are two different things. I have encountered coaches at a 16U national which lived on misinformation he received at the local level
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Last edited by IRISHMAFIA; Mon Apr 11, 2011 at 09:36am. Reason: Got cut off.
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Old Mon Apr 11, 2011, 09:40am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saharvey2 View Post
Supplementing the official rules with league rules is a poor choice in my mind.

Stuart Harvey
welcome to the club,a s well as to the forum.
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Old Mon Apr 11, 2011, 11:54am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA View Post
Teaching players the game and providing bad references are two different things. I have encountered coaches at a 16U national which lived on misinformation he received at the local level
How is a local rule misinformation? We have a league where if you hit the ball over the fence in certain spots in flight it's a double. Is this misinformation?
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Old Mon Apr 11, 2011, 12:29pm
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Originally Posted by youngump View Post
How is a local rule misinformation? We have a league where if you hit the ball over the fence in certain spots in flight it's a double. Is this misinformation?
That'd be a ground rule, unless that section of fence is shorter than the minimum prescribed distance. Then, it'd be an actual rule.

I can't quite agree with Irish on the line issue. Rules are established before a game to set the level of expectation based on the anticipated level of competition and fair play. If the level of play is that low, then I see nothing wrong with setting up additional "parameters" within which the game is to be played. Granted, a player playing in such a league won't learn much about the proper way to play the sport, but if her goal isn't advancement, what's wrong with it?

Like bumpers in bowling. It doesn't help the players improve, but it can improve the enjoyment of the game. And if everyone agrees to their use, I see no harm in it.

Then again, I used to bowl in the 200s (without bumpers and with the foul lights activated) when I was 11, so... Might not be a good example.
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I haven't decided if I should call it from the dugout or the outfield. Apparently, both have really great views!

Screw green, it ain't easy being blue!

I won't be coming here that much anymore. I might check in now and again.
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