Potential for a big mess....
 

Situation:

HS V game - Bases loaded, 2 outs, 3-2 count on the batter. I am PU, pitch comes in just up and slightly inside, I call Ball 4, batter starts to swing, but stops. F2 asks me to go for help on the check swing, BU partner rings up the third strike for out number 3, inning over.

What got me thinking was what if this had happened with less than two out?
ie, ball 4, B/R heads to first, all other runners start advancing, then BU partner rings up the third strike....all the other runners are already off base and trotting toward the next base and would be easily picked off...do we let that play stand? I know what I would do, but would like to hear other opinions.

How long of a delay before the catcher asked for you to go for help?

I think in this situation, the PU should go for help on his/her own immediately upon any check swing. Same thing as on a D3K/check swing situation.

Got to ask, right or left handed batter? Right handed, she must have gone an awfully long way around to get rung up from C position.

If I'm the BU in C, I'm going to answer NO and signal safe in the <2 outs situation. However, your partner didn't do that.

In the event the call resulted in an easy tag out of a runner who thought she was forced to advance as a result of the apparent walk, you could use 10.2.m to return runners to their previous bases. Your call of BALL was reversed by the BU, which put the runners in jeopardy.

All the "what ifs" and alternate scenarios aside, if the initial or subsequent call placed either team in jeopardy of making the proper play, I'm going to correct the count and move all runners to the base they would have been, IMO, had my call not been reversed.

I hear that comment a lot. But why would one make such a blanket situation? What if she swung?

I understand the burdon of proof may be very high to make that call from C, but to say one would never call a strike from C is, in my opinion, irresponsible.

Robbie, I agree with you. But in the case of a delayed request with runners moving (or in the case in which it would become a dropped 3K) I'm going to lean strongly to a "no swing" call, especially from the C slot.

As an aside, I was watching a 2-ump NCAA game a couple of years ago when BU ruled a swing from C. The offensive coach questioned him, and he responded, "Coach, if she'd have made contact she would have hit it out of the park!"

Wading in to treacherous waters, in baseball, they have a rule noting that players maintain liability to be put out in this kind of situation. I prefer the fix it approach though.

So you're scoring a run and advancing the other runners?

GOT to ask???:rolleyes:
Why do you have to ask?????:rolleyes:

Exactly

??
I'm putting the runners back.
Unless something unusaul happened would they otherwise have advanced?
And the way I read Irish's response, he would do the same.

I have no idea where you came up with that as I certainly didn't say that.

Of course, that would have been the reaction if the BU said "NO".

Totally agree.

Bullcrap......you call what you see.

Joel

I remember one guy telling me "if" (while asking for a checked swing) "I point with my fist, call it a no swing, but if I point with an open hand call it a strike."

I told him don't even bother to ask because I am gonna tell you what I saw, not what you wanted me to see!

__________________

So what did you mean?

As you're required to do by rule.

To begin, my comment was generic. A simple statement that I would correct the situation as to off-set any negative affect the change of the call would have on either team.

If IMO runners are advancing based upon my "ball" call, they will be sent back to the base they occupied at the time of the pitch.

BTW, if the DC wants to argue the point, cite 5.2.1.f as the ball being dead (the moment I stepped from behind the plate to perform part of my duties as an umpire which drew my attention away from possible play) so runners cannot advance, nor be put out. (5.2.2.a-b)

But there better not be one doubt in your mind. You have a worse angle than the plate umpire.

I've made that call twice in 24 from the C with a right handed batter. Both times the situation was the same: high pitch, catcher stood up and blocked the PU's view, and I was looking directly at the end of the bat's barrel.

As there shouldn't be if you make the call from A or B. right?

Correct.

I am saying to call what you have......not to base your call on where you are on the field. Did the batter check thier swing.......Yes.......you give a safe sign.

No......ring up a strike.

I am not in the habit of making calls I am not sure of.

Joel

Really? And what if you're not sure? I doubt you'd really just refuse to make a call on a checked swing. In my mind some calls are best guess if you're not sure, blocked out on a pitch perhaps. And others where you need to be sure, illegal pitch. The key difference usually being that in many cases you have to make some call.

I would be sure and make a call.......I am also not in the habit of falling asleep on the ballfield. To make a blanket statement that if you were in C you would always call a no-swing is irresponsible.

Joel

Not sure why you would ask this. I know (several of) your trainers, and know you have been told:

Never guess an out. If you didn't see an out, it must be safe.

Never guess a catch. If you didn't see a catch, it was no catch.

Never guess a strike. If you didn't see a strike, it must be a ball.

Never guess a swing. If you didn't see a swing, it must not have been one.

Never guess a batter out of the box, never guess an illegal pitch, etc, etc.

Yeah, I have at least most of those and perhaps I overstated what I meant to say. Still I don't think that's the same standard as saying that if you aren't sure, it's safe. If I'm working alone and we have a steal at second and I didn't manage to get close (maybe I had a runner at 3rd) and the ball beats the runner and F4/6 puts down the tag and the runner slides outside and I have to use my best judgment about whether she laid down the tag, I'm going to call her out.
Now maybe that's me not understanding or believing that I shouldn't guess an out (SRW may be around to tell me I'm doing it wrong any minute) but it seems like that's different from guessing an out.
Put alternatively, girl appears out at the plate and I'm not "sure", coach comes out to argue my safe call. "Coach, I believe you are right but was only 99% sure."

I agree. If you're working alone and following the "if not sure, safe" guideline strictly, there would never be an out on a throw down at 2B with the tag to the outfield side. You do have to make a judgment; just don't tell the coach it was a guess! ;)

Are you implying that the umpire should change his opinion of an offer based on his position? That's asinine.

You don't have to be SURE that it was a swing... you have to be SURE that you didn't see a swing. If you saw one, it's a strike. If you are not positive you saw a swing, then you are SURE that you didn't see a swing, and rule no swing.

Those semantic gymnastics just don't work. You could say, I'm sure that I'm not sure I saw a swing. But you certainly can't say from that, that I'm sure I didn't see a swing.
But I don't disagree with what I think you were trying to say. If I don't see her offer, I'm not going to call it.
And to expand that a little since maybe I still don't understand. When I say in my judgment she swung, that's not the same thing as saying there is no possible doubt in my mind that she offered at that pitch. As Steve pointed out, there's a default call for many situations. If you don't see an out, safe. But that is different from I saw an out and there's still the smallest amount of doubt in my mind.

Back to the original post, my NCAA crew had that call this weekend.

R1 on 1st in the bottom of the 7th, 1 out, 3-1 count. I am U1 in 3 man crew. PU rules ball 4, and appeals swing to me. I have a swing (strike 2); in that space of time, R1 heads toward 2nd, believing she is forced, then half-heartedly returns, but is picked!!

Not sure of proper mechanic at this point, but I ring out the pick. Offensive Head Coach (class act, mind you) comes out, not sure what to ask, but then wants the "Did she go?" appeal to be a dead ball. I say, no, it remains live, but agree to bring the (3 umpire) crew together to "check".

In the huddle, I tell everyone what the coach asked, but I am declining, BUT add that I think we put the runner in jeopardy with the initial call and subsequent reversal. Crew agrees, I explain the revised ruling to the defensive coach (she also HAD to come out and ask, but also a class act); and we put the runner back with (now) 3-2 count, still 1 out. Miracle of miracles, everyone moved on, and the world didn't end!!

Mechanics question to others; I felt I HAD to make the initial call, then not consider "jeopardy" unless someone else challenged. What say you? Could/should I have just refused to call the (apparent) out, like an obstruction ruling?

Thank you Steve.......!!

You made the call that was correct and then fixed it!

There is no need to lie about a call to attempt to avoid a crap storm.

Joel

Not exactly the same, but closely related, I think.

Bases loaded, 1 out. B hits low line drive to F6 making a what looked like a shoe-string, snow cone catch. I am PU and rule CATCH. F6 throws to F4 to what would then be a double play retiring R2 before she can return to 2B.

There was a question in my mind as to whether it was a catch or trap.
I asked partner if he saw the ball touch the ground, to which he said yes.

I fixed the call by awarding B 1B, and retiring R3 on the force out at 2B, awarding R2 3B, we now have 2 outs.

DC questions the mechanic saying that my call put his team at a disadvantage, but understood when I said that my call put both teams at an equal disadvantage, albeit that a run scored and only one out was registered rather than an inning-ending double play.

What say ye?

I don't see why you'd wait. If bases loaded 2 out, F3 pulled her foot and the OC came out and asked you to go for help and you went for help and your partner tells you that she pulled her foot are you going to wait for him to complain before you bring the rest of his runners back out?

Perhaps a rule/mechanic change is in order here. If we killed the ball immediately if we were going to go out on a check swing appeal of ball 3 then we'd avoid a bunch of messes and only take away the dumb games around first base.

I had almost this exact play yesterday in a HS game. Difference was the throw was back to 1B for the live ball appeal. I immediately asked my partner if he had a catch; he said no, it was a trap. Meanwhile, both runners had returned to the dugout. We ruled the BR out on the throw to 1B and place the original R1 back on 1B. Like tcannizzo, comments?

An umpire should always make the call that is appropriate at the time of the play. Doing otherwise may deprive the defense of another possible play or the offense of having another runner advance then you have a lot more "crap" to clean up.

Even with OBS, you really only "don't" call the out when it was the OBS runner and YOU were the one who raised the arm.

Good call!